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Post by Zaz on Jul 19, 2018 9:37:19 GMT -7
Its strange to me so many people keep bringing football into this. "Floyd wasnt playing well" as if that matters. The crime is what matters. If Larry Fitzerald was a 2 time extreme DUI, Id be for cutting him too. This is an issue of integrity, not football. And also remorse is worthless. If Keim were sorry, then he wouldnt have gotten a 2nd DUI. Its been said by others, but I agree that Keim is a functioning alcoholic. Theres no way a .193 should be that composed and able to talk to police coherently. Hes sorry he finally got caught. Firing them is your subjective value judgement of integrity. Very true. It is my personal view that (2 time) DUI is a very serious offense that deserves termination and imprisonment. For people who shrug at DUIs, I dont know what to tell you. I could list death stats, but I dont think itd matter. This is a football forum, so naturally there will be a bias for the football team over the safety of your families.
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biggs
Pro Bowler
Posts: 1,076
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Post by biggs on Jul 19, 2018 9:49:26 GMT -7
It's a fair point. I think trying to compare the two issues ignores both money and relationship. In Floyds case he didn't have a relationship or monetary leverage. In SK case he has both. One of the reasons SK has both is his personal relationship with ownership. Let me give you another scenario. Lets suppose Floyd was extended before the season for 5 years like SK and got a substantial bonus that was pro rated across that contract. I suspect he would have been put in rehab and subjected to the NFL code of conduct policy. Both of us are speculating but the fact is SK didn't have to be extended until the end of this year. The extension for 5 years gives him substantial leverage against being fired. I do think that you're right that it's only part of the story. Bidwil clearly has a very good personal relationship with SK. SK had a what looks like a great draft but the fact is he was extended after 2 years without making the playoffs and having two drafts that are at best suspect. That happened before this years draft. In GM terms hot garbage. SK obviously has a different relationship with ownership than Floyd. I also don't doubt for a second that Bidwil knows that SK has problems and views him completely different than a player the team was moving on from. I think it's admirable of Bidwil to stand behind SK. I'm not a fan of a witch hunt against an employee with real problems. I'm hopeful he gets the support he needs to turn it around. The real difference between Floyd and SK is SK is an integral part of the organization and Floyd was a replaceable cog. I disagree on your views of Mike. He is a good person, for sure. I like Mike very much. However, I dont view his standing behind Keim as a strength. I think Mike just doesnt like conflict. As owner, he also allowed Amos to not be fired. Mike has some Bill in him, where he wont confront or fire his GM. Ignore the DUI for a moment: Keim should be fired because he hasnt performed well as a GM. His drafting has been atrocious (you cant give credit for the 2018 class since they havent played. Maybe Rosen is a bust too). His Free agents are pretty good, but not franchise changing. The single best thing hes done as GM was getting Chandler. Otherwise, hes subpar. And so a subpar GM getting an extreme DUI, I dont understand why he keeps his job. Hes very replaceable. Even without the DUI, I think its time for fresh blood in charge. ZAZ-I totally disagreed with extended SK last year. From a football POV he had 2 years left and just hired a rookie HC. If Wilks turns out to be a deer in the headlights and has to be fired, a new GM should be brought in to make that hire and reshape the entire organization. I also agree the last two drafts and the fact that we didn't make the playoffs weren't a good reason for a new 5 year contract. He should have waited until the end of this year to either extend him or not. He wasn't a lame duck GM so the extension wasn't needed at all. I get your point and agree about SK and the owner. You're right Rosen could be a bust but if he turns out to be a franchise QB and Wilks and his new staff turn this around, that would be pretty fantastic and a very positive reflection on SK as a GM. Granted it hasn't happened yet. So lets assume for a moment I agree with the premise that SK is a subpar GM and Mike is to loyal. How does Mike making the cold calculation to dump SK in his time of need because he has a problem the right thing to do? I'm not saying it isn't the right thing to do but I don't agree with your premise that the organizations integrity is at stake. There is an argument to be made for standing by your employees and following the HR procedures and the law. While the law is black and white and the code of conduct is pretty much black and white, firing him or helping him isn't.
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Post by Zaz on Jul 19, 2018 9:54:27 GMT -7
I disagree on your views of Mike. He is a good person, for sure. I like Mike very much. However, I dont view his standing behind Keim as a strength. I think Mike just doesnt like conflict. As owner, he also allowed Amos to not be fired. Mike has some Bill in him, where he wont confront or fire his GM. Ignore the DUI for a moment: Keim should be fired because he hasnt performed well as a GM. His drafting has been atrocious (you cant give credit for the 2018 class since they havent played. Maybe Rosen is a bust too). His Free agents are pretty good, but not franchise changing. The single best thing hes done as GM was getting Chandler. Otherwise, hes subpar. And so a subpar GM getting an extreme DUI, I dont understand why he keeps his job. Hes very replaceable. Even without the DUI, I think its time for fresh blood in charge. How does Mike making the cold calculation to dump SK in his time of need because he has a problem the right thing to do? I'm not saying it isn't the right thing to do but I don't agree with your premise that the organizations integrity is at stake. There is an argument to be made for standing by your employees and following the HR procedures and the law. While the law is black and white and the code of conduct is pretty much black and white, firing him or helping him isn't. You should already know im not a "in their time of need" sympathizer. I said it before, and in my heart I feel this is very very fair: - The 1st DUI is the time for empathy. Forgiveness. You made a mistake now lets learn and grow. - The 2nd DUI is the time for punishment. This might sound cold, but prison might be the best thing for Keim if you want to help him. Nothing will dry you up quicker and keep you scared straight. So if you want to help Keim permanently...lock him up.
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Post by Zaz on Jul 19, 2018 9:57:48 GMT -7
And as for the integrity thing, it mirrors BA and his coaches. BA would never fire an inept coach like Amos. But he'd cut a player on the spot. That lack of consistency is reflected in Keim now.
How is Keim suppose to cut a player "in their time of need" when he himself was treated mercifully?
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biggs
Pro Bowler
Posts: 1,076
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Post by biggs on Jul 19, 2018 9:57:48 GMT -7
Firing them is your subjective value judgement of integrity. Very true. It is my personal view that (2 time) DUI is a very serious offense that deserves termination and imprisonment. For people who shrug at DUIs, I dont know what to tell you. I could list death stats, but I dont think itd matter. This is a football forum, so naturally there will be a bias for the football team over the safety of your families. ZAZ I look at people with drinking problems as basically drug addicts. Some of them recover and some don't. I don't shrug at a DUI, I agree with you that its a huge problem. I guess where we part is I think some drug addicts can be rehabilitated and be productive at work while being rehabbed. SK has been publicly outed. If he doesn't rehab and get his sh** together it's all on him. If he wasn't in the public eye he would have gone to work the next day and nobody at work would have looked to fire him.
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Boomer
Pro Bowler
Posts: 1,358
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Post by Boomer on Jul 19, 2018 10:16:34 GMT -7
It's a fair point. I think trying to compare the two issues ignores both money and relationship. In Floyds case he didn't have a relationship or monetary leverage. In SK case he has both. One of the reasons SK has both is his personal relationship with ownership. Let me give you another scenario. Lets suppose Floyd was extended before the season for 5 years like SK and got a substantial bonus that was pro rated across that contract. I suspect he would have been put in rehab and subjected to the NFL code of conduct policy. Both of us are speculating but the fact is SK didn't have to be extended until the end of this year. The extension for 5 years gives him substantial leverage against being fired. I do think that you're right that it's only part of the story. Bidwil clearly has a very good personal relationship with SK. SK had a what looks like a great draft but the fact is he was extended after 2 years without making the playoffs and having two drafts that are at best suspect. That happened before this years draft. In GM terms hot garbage. SK obviously has a different relationship with ownership than Floyd. I also don't doubt for a second that Bidwil knows that SK has problems and views him completely different than a player the team was moving on from. I think it's admirable of Bidwil to stand behind SK. I'm not a fan of a witch hunt against an employee with real problems. I'm hopeful he gets the support he needs to turn it around. The real difference between Floyd and SK is SK is an integral part of the organization and Floyd was a replaceable cog. I disagree on your views of Mike. He is a good person, for sure. I like Mike very much. However, I dont view his standing behind Keim as a strength. I think Mike just doesnt like conflict. As owner, he also allowed Amos to not be fired. Mike has some Bill in him, where he wont confront or fire his GM. Ignore the DUI for a moment: Keim should be fired because he hasnt performed well as a GM. His drafting has been atrocious (you cant give credit for the 2018 class since they havent played. Maybe Rosen is a bust too). His Free agents are pretty good, but not franchise changing. The single best thing hes done as GM was getting Chandler. Otherwise, hes subpar. And so a subpar GM getting an extreme DUI, I dont understand why he keeps his job. Hes very replaceable. Even without the DUI, I think its time for fresh blood in charge. If you were my employee I'd have you drug screened for posting this trash.
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Post by Rimrock on Jul 19, 2018 17:17:49 GMT -7
I disagree on your views of Mike. He is a good person, for sure. I like Mike very much. However, I dont view his standing behind Keim as a strength. I think Mike just doesnt like conflict. As owner, he also allowed Amos to not be fired. Mike has some Bill in him, where he wont confront or fire his GM. Ignore the DUI for a moment: Keim should be fired because he hasnt performed well as a GM. His drafting has been atrocious (you cant give credit for the 2018 class since they havent played. Maybe Rosen is a bust too). His Free agents are pretty good, but not franchise changing. The single best thing hes done as GM was getting Chandler. Otherwise, hes subpar. And so a subpar GM getting an extreme DUI, I dont understand why he keeps his job. Hes very replaceable. Even without the DUI, I think its time for fresh blood in charge. If you were my employee I'd have you drug screened for posting this trash. Bwaa
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 17:40:16 GMT -7
I don't equate M Floyd's arrest to SK's. Both were bad so in that respect yes. But "If" M Floyd would've been forthright and honest after the fact then there would be some similarity. He was not. I can live with SK staying as GM, as I noted, imhpo, I think he was done a very good job for the Cards as the GM. It's just that given all the facts (and having access to them) would've caused me (in MB's Shoes) to ask for a resignation. SK even if asked to resign could say no and then be forced out by a firing. Something I think MB would not want right now this season. But over the this season and next if SK doesn't give exemplary work or makes another Faux paux. Then that opens the door for expulsion. Its strange to me so many people keep bringing football into this. "Floyd wasnt playing well" as if that matters. The crime is what matters. If Larry Fitzerald was a 2 time extreme DUI, Id be for cutting him too. This is an issue of integrity, not football. And also remorse is worthless. If Keim were sorry, then he wouldnt have gotten a 2nd DUI. Its been said by others, but I agree that Keim is a functioning alcoholic. Theres no way a .193 should be that composed and able to talk to police coherently. Hes sorry he finally got caught. I said nothing about MFloyd's play. So don't misquote me. Or group me when I said no such thing. Either learn how to quote properly or just stop quoting altogether.
And as has been pointed out, stop with making your suppositions as if they are facts. When they are not. They are your opinion and supposition. You don't have 1st hand information on Any of these matters. All is 2nd hand at best.
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Post by vwvectors on Jul 20, 2018 6:48:29 GMT -7
SK is a better than average GM although some of his small school draft picks cause me to pull my hair. Even though the DUIs are far apart this is his second (being double the limit) and he’s got to go. Let him find redemption with another team. Bidwill is being loyal to a fault at this point. I don’t know what could be going on behind the scenes that would cause Bidwill to keep Steve.
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Post by Zaz on Jul 20, 2018 8:54:11 GMT -7
Its strange to me so many people keep bringing football into this. "Floyd wasnt playing well" as if that matters. The crime is what matters. If Larry Fitzerald was a 2 time extreme DUI, Id be for cutting him too. This is an issue of integrity, not football. And also remorse is worthless. If Keim were sorry, then he wouldnt have gotten a 2nd DUI. Its been said by others, but I agree that Keim is a functioning alcoholic. Theres no way a .193 should be that composed and able to talk to police coherently. Hes sorry he finally got caught. I said nothing about MFloyd's play. So don't misquote me. Or group me when I said no such thing. Either learn how to quote properly or just stop quoting altogether.
And as has been pointed out, stop with making your suppositions as if they are facts. When they are not. They are your opinion and supposition. You don't have 1st hand information on Any of these matters. All is 2nd hand at best.
I didnt say you said. I said people are saying, because Ive seen talk in here about Floyds on-field performance as an additional reason why he got cut. And the fact is Keim got a 2nd DUI. He doesnt get the benefit of jack. Ill assume all I want and create any fact I want BC he's forfeited credibility. I can say anything I want about him and his counter argument will be that of an alcoholic.
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