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Post by CardSunsCard on Oct 3, 2024 9:00:34 GMT -7
I don't think folks are saying he's bottom 10 or anything. The issue is most of us want playoff wins. So when you look at any player, you analyze his floor and his ceiling. Kyler's athletic tools give him a very HIGH floor. His ceiling is starting to appear very low to most board members by now. Kyler can easily be a 0.500 QB. I think most of us want a lot more than just someone who bats 0.500 on the football field. Also. it was forgivable that a rookie QB outplayed him last year given his injury. Rookie QBs should not be outplaying him now. He is less then 500. I think he is 29 and 39 with one tie. He might be less than 0.500 now, I'm just saying with his FLOOR he should be able to play 500 ball if he's got an okay defense. The real issue is his ceiling. He has made no improvement in terms of decision making. He still throws in double coverage more often than he should and misses open WR's. He still takes too many sacks. This points to fact he still likely has mental shortcomings many of us posted about on Day 1. KM's issue has never been athletic talent. He's got enough to beat inferior teams most days. The question is can he win the tough games. Can he win playoff time. I just don't see it. I thought he was making strides when we started adjusting offense and putting him under center. Our OL has certainly improved, we can run the football well AND he's now got a true #1 WR and TE. Lack of supporting cast can no longer be used as an excuse. Lack of run game isn't an excuse. Some folks have talked about some WR's running into double coverage, but the thing is, IF one WR is being doubled, that means someone else is 'always' wide open. And it's Kyler's job to find the open target. So I doubt buy the excuse that it's all a double coverage route running issue. The ONLY way you can double multiple targets is to drop 8, and when that happens, smarter QBs can still find open guys because the lack of pass rush gives one more time. Thing is, and I've said this since his college days, the best performances against Kyler as usually those that drop 8. If teams do that all you can to is gash them with a run game until they are forced to bring more into the box. Then pick them apart. |
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Post by End Zone on Oct 3, 2024 12:40:29 GMT -7
That same rookie outplayed Burrow too. That OL is also pretty damn good. They have good PFF scores throughout the year. You're right though. We should have at least been competitive against that bad defense. Have you seen that Kurt Warner video that I posted? Our WRs are literally running into being covered. We will have the rest of the season to decide for ourselves but I have seen enough to feel confident unless there is a huge transformation in his play he will be done here. For certain, the evidence is piling up for a big change at the top. In one evidence pile, there are the QB's good stats and entertaining video clips. In the other pile, are the missed opportunities and losses. The year away from the game was supposed to provide Murray an opportunity to transform his game. A new HC and OC in 2023 opened the door for that to happen in 2024. Bottom line: To date, Murry is not the winner everyone expected at ARZ beginning in 2019. Five years later, now 2024, here we are again, looking at a 1-3 start with 3/4 of the season to go. In two weeks, there is a real probability that the record could sink to 1-5 after road games vs. SF and GB. Then what happens? GM shoulder shrugs? I doubt it. |
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Post by devongent on Oct 3, 2024 15:41:32 GMT -7
IMO, this is Murray's last season in the NFL if he doesn't show game to game consistency. This does strike me has an overreaction; unless he gets a serious injury he will still have a starter spot in the NFL and with the size of current contract, then that's likely to be in Arizona. - Can we really dump that contract? For myself, starting again in the draft at Quarterback leaves me cold and the thought of another three/ four cycle of rebuild. I am never convinced that drafting ANY QB is a sure thing and doing so seems like us 'rolling the dice once more and hoping for the best' in my opinion. Painting a bleak picture? - I think we should continue to build the lines and especially on Defense. We need real quality and the ability to stop the run, put pressure up the middle and then the ability to attack from the Edge. So, ultimately I'm prepared to keep with Kyler Murray and run down the clock on his contract. Let's put the building blocks in place and give any future replacement the tools to win. - Regarding Murray,.... then judge about him later in the season. |
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Post by End Zone on Oct 3, 2024 21:21:09 GMT -7
IMO, this is Murray's last season in the NFL if he doesn't show game to game consistency. This does strike me has an overreaction; unless he gets a serious injury he will still have a starter spot in the NFL and with the size of current contract, then that's likely to be in Arizona. - Can we really dump that contract? For myself, starting again in the draft at Quarterback leaves me cold and the thought of another three/ four cycle of rebuild. I am never convinced that drafting ANY QB is a sure thing and doing so seems like us 'rolling the dice once more and hoping for the best' in my opinion. Painting a bleak picture? - I think we should continue to build the lines and especially on Defense. We need real quality and the ability to stop the run, put pressure up the middle and then the ability to attack from the Edge. So, ultimately I'm prepared to keep with Kyler Murray and run down the clock on his contract. Let's put the building blocks in place and give any future replacement the tools to win. - Regarding Murray,.... then judge about him later in the season. I'm not wedded to any 'starter.' The #1 starts because they are good (leader, skill, knowledge), e.g., better than #2. But, when the #1 doesn't produce wins, are they really qualified to be labeled 'starter,' team captain, etc? Where am I going with the line of thinking? I always keep 1-2 backup options ready to execute at home. Ossenfort is the same. What is his b/u plan? I tend to agree that we are 'all in' for Murray today. But, that contract commitment includes an exit door. And that door does not necessarily lead to a 2025 QB Draft option. Sometime in the near future, if Murray doesn't begin winning back to back games darned soon, there will be a new thread: Draft QB, or Sign Veteran QB? You saw what Kirk Cousins did for the Falcons last night? 500 yards. Yikes! |
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Post by BigRedFan on Oct 3, 2024 22:36:16 GMT -7
IMO, this is Murray's last season in the NFL if he doesn't show game to game consistency. This does strike me has an overreaction; unless he gets a serious injury he will still have a starter spot in the NFL and with the size of current contract, then that's likely to be in Arizona. - Can we really dump that contract? For myself, starting again in the draft at Quarterback leaves me cold and the thought of another three/ four cycle of rebuild. I am never convinced that drafting ANY QB is a sure thing and doing so seems like us 'rolling the dice once more and hoping for the best' in my opinion. Painting a bleak picture? - I think we should continue to build the lines and especially on Defense. We need real quality and the ability to stop the run, put pressure up the middle and then the ability to attack from the Edge. So, ultimately I'm prepared to keep with Kyler Murray and run down the clock on his contract. Let's put the building blocks in place and give any future replacement the tools to win. - Regarding Murray,.... then judge about him later in the season. devon, the voice of reason. Fair points on all accounts. I've defended Murray since his rookie season. By year 6 K1 should be able to dissect a pathetic Commanders defense. His off script play was awful. In fairness, the right side of the OL with Hernandez, Beachum absolutely stinks as far as pass pro goes. Run game however, is a different story. Kyler Murray has to make plays with his legs. Petzing has to call better situational plays. To be fair, Petzing was awful in his last two games. Murray needs to start dominating football games. Murray MUST make MJH the offensive rookie of the year. Murray MUST throw over 30 TD passes AND only throw 10 or under INTs. Murray MUST rush for at least 5 TDS. Murray MUST rush for at least 250 scrimmage yards. If he's close to my projections, I'll buy back in on K1. Cardinal fans want to see progression in their 50 mil per year signal caller. |
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Post by devongent on Oct 4, 2024 0:47:29 GMT -7
I'm not wedded to any 'starter.' The #1 starts because they are good (leader, skill, knowledge), e.g., better than #2. But, when the #1 doesn't produce wins, are they really qualified to be labeled 'starter,' team captain, etc? That's correct EZ, but we hardly have someone on the roster nipping at Murray's ankles to replace him any time soon. The wheels would have to come off big time (or he gets injured) and I don't believe we are anywhere near that point. The 49ers are a great example of what I'm trying to say; they have consistently invested resources along the Defensive front line and (surprise it is not) they have been in the SB mix and so very close to winning it. They sunk huge draft resources into Trey Lance, which turned into lead. They took a chance on Brock Purdy and he became pure gold. - It could be (we will never know) the Lance signing has lost them at least one SB, just think who else could now be on their team with the draft capital squandered. Maybe we go back shopping for a reliable QB2 type of player and that is sensible. We have tried both routes, the draft (Clayton Tune) and trade (Desmond Ridder). - I could stomach drafting a new Quarterback in the middle rounds every season; throw enough darts at the board and one will land in the bullseye. Alternatively, take on a fallen star such as Trey Lance, you can never write such a player off completely and a new environment can sometimes re-energize their career. |
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Post by devongent on Oct 4, 2024 1:11:21 GMT -7
Murray needs to start dominating football games. Murray MUST make MJH the offensive rookie of the year. Murray MUST throw over 30 TD passes AND only throw 10 or under INTs. Murray MUST rush for at least 5 TDS. Murray MUST rush for at least 250 scrimmage yards. If he's close to my projections, I'll buy back in on K1. Nothing too difficult there then. I expect that's what he wants and is striving to achieve. Cardinal fans want to see progression in their 50 mil per year signal caller. I get that entirely. The fanbase are concerned he has reached a plateau and he won't progress further (and take the team to greatness). This could well be reality, but it doesn't mean Kyler Murray is not a good player. His attributes and limitations could well be baked in (what we see is what we get), but he can still function as a dangerous foe and we continue to build-up the team around him (and for the benefit of his future successor). |
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Post by CardCore on Oct 4, 2024 6:42:08 GMT -7
Murray needs to start dominating football games. Murray MUST make MJH the offensive rookie of the year. Murray MUST throw over 30 TD passes AND only throw 10 or under INTs. Murray MUST rush for at least 5 TDS. Murray MUST rush for at least 250 scrimmage yards. If he's close to my projections, I'll buy back in on K1. Nothing too difficult there then. I expect that's what he wants and is striving to achieve. Cardinal fans want to see progression in their 50 mil per year signal caller. I get that entirely. The fanbase are concerned he has reached a plateau and he won't progress further (and take the team to greatness). This could well be reality, but it doesn't mean Kyler Murray is not a good player. His attributes and limitations could well be baked in (what we see is what we get), but he can still function as a dangerous foe and we continue to build-up the team around him (and for the benefit of his future successor). The main problem with that forecast is the amount of $$ he's being paid. |
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Post by cardinalsins on Oct 4, 2024 21:19:45 GMT -7
For the record, I used to think that he could elevate a roster like the elite QBs can. I still think that he can beat anyone when he is in the zone. I no longer think that he can overcome this bad roster. He'll still get us some wins that we probably wouldn't get otherwise, but he needs more talent around him to make the playoffs. The rushing offense is 5th passing is 28th. 1-3 soon to be 1-4. Commanders defense was worst then ours lol. Our receivers are not getting open. I posted the stat elsewhere. Marv is top 15ish, the rest bad....as in the 60s. |
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Post by BigRedFan on Oct 4, 2024 21:26:13 GMT -7
I'll say this after that disgraceful loss at home v. Commanders. Jonathan Gannon should not be on the hot seat.
Monti Ossenfort or Dave Sears should not be on the hot seat even tho' the new regime's record is now 5-16. It's time
to see what this new brass can do with more than just 2 drafts. I've criticized Monti for not spending cap money THIS
season but hopefully he has a plan as he's weighs K1's contract in the upcoming years being more cap favorable.
It's K1, imo, who's on the hot seat. He needs to be consistent from one game to the next. Murray and Petzing need to
be able to call plays and manage clock to help this awful defense which allows opponent scores on almost every drive.
Credit to Ralis' calls on the 1st quarter of the Bills game and the second half of the Lions game. Excellent job...
both games were relatively close.
No credit for the defense or Ralis in the Rams' game as Cardinals were up against Rams' practice squad protecting
Stafford. Collins and Gardek taking bows like they were the 2nd coming of Lawrence Taylor. Both of their names
haven't been called since the Rams game.
It comes down to Murray. He's not a top 10 quarterback. He's not a bottom 10 quarterback. That makes it tough for
any organization to know how to proceed for future success. The direction Cardinal brass takes for the organization
hinges entirely on Murray's play vs. the 50 mil per. jmo.
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Post by devongent on Oct 5, 2024 1:09:57 GMT -7
Jonathan Gannon should not be on the hot seat. Perhaps a little too early for that, but has the HC you are ALWAYS on the hot seat. He cannot afford too many more performances like the Washington game, but if team morale dips, then things can go south pretty damned quickly. Looking forward to players coming out with fire and desire on Sunday. Each should have pride in their personal performances (minimum required). BTW: Gannon and his cap in the press conferences really annoys me. It might be a cultural thing over there (normal attire), but you cannot look into the white of his eyes when he rattles through answers to the questions. I think his persona is macho, not measured and considered thinking. |
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Post by Redbirdfan62 on Oct 5, 2024 6:05:50 GMT -7
The rushing offense is 5th passing is 28th. 1-3 soon to be 1-4. Commanders defense was worst then ours lol. Our receivers are not getting open. I posted the stat elsewhere. Marv is top 15ish, the rest bad....as in the 60s. Not true I have rewatched every game and saw on many occasions that wr's were open he just simply didn't pull the trigger and he was watching the Wr that he locked on too long and if he was better at going through his progressions he would see open wr's. he has a bad habit of sticking too long on a wr missing open receivers other then the one he is locked on or he bails out of plays takes himself out of position to make a good throw. I saw your link but didn't really pay it much mind knowing what I saw on video. Sometimes qb's have narrow wqindows or they throw the wr open and he can't seem to do it well enough. Thursday night cousins looked really good he anticipated wr's and threw to a spot his wr could get it Kyler can't do that. It's down to this, petzing is gonna draw up a better gameplan and KM is gonna have to do better or else. Were there plays where guy's were not open yes it happens but I found open wr's repeatedly that he didn't throw to or some he missed his window on. |
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Post by End Zone on Oct 5, 2024 7:31:16 GMT -7
Jonathan Gannon should not be on the hot seat. Perhaps a little too early for that, but has the HC you are ALWAYS on the hot seat. He cannot afford too many more performances like the Washington game, but if team morale dips, then things can go south pretty damned quickly. Looking forward to players coming out with fire and desire on Sunday. Each should have pride in their personal performances (minimum required). BTW: Gannon and his cap in the press conferences really annoys me. It might be a cultural thing over there (normal attire), but you cannot look into the white of his eyes when he rattles through answers to the questions. I think his persona is macho, not measured and considered thinking. Same here, DG. That team cap (advertising the gear?) over Gannon's eyes is annoying, especially at a presser where the speaker's words, tone, and body motion each carry weight. When Gannon hides his eyes within the cap brim shadow, my trust in the Head Coach wavers. It's just natural for me to look a person in the eyes when he speaks. Eyes talk to me. * Or, perhaps the platform lights are glaring and Gannon's eyes are overly sensitive. I'm sure it's not cultural or stylish for Gannon to wear a cap indoors. I know what you are talking about with other celebrities. |
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Post by cardinalsins on Oct 5, 2024 8:29:42 GMT -7
Our receivers are not getting open. I posted the stat elsewhere. Marv is top 15ish, the rest bad....as in the 60s. Not true I have rewatched every game and saw on many occasions that wr's were open he just simply didn't pull the trigger and he was watching the Wr that he locked on too long and if he was better at going through his progressions he would see open wr's. he has a bad habit of sticking too long on a wr missing open receivers other then the one he is locked on or he bails out of plays takes himself out of position to make a good throw. I saw your link but didn't really pay it much mind knowing what I saw on video. Sometimes qb's have narrow wqindows or they throw the wr open and he can't seem to do it well enough. Thursday night cousins looked really good he anticipated wr's and threw to a spot his wr could get it Kyler can't do that. It's down to this, petzing is gonna draw up a better gameplan and KM is gonna have to do better or else. Were there plays where guy's were not open yes it happens but I found open wr's repeatedly that he didn't throw to or some he missed his window on. They are ranked poorly via PFF and ESPN metrics. Vs peers. Objectively poor. Take a look at the Vikings offense in comparison. Or the 9ers. Oh...and with some of the league's worst time to throw. It's fair to be critical of K1...but be aware of how poor this roster is playing everywhere. |
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Post by End Zone on Oct 5, 2024 11:08:23 GMT -7
Two weeks ago people were hyping Kyler as top 5 QB. How quickly things change. I do not think they will be trading him, I think he is the QB through 2025. Tune should not even be a #2, no need to see anything from him. You think yesterday was bad, put Tune in and you will really lose the team and fans. They did overspend on defense, just not as much as some fans wanted. They paid too much for the DT’s and the CB. That will hinder them a little, but it could have been worse. It will be interesting to see how Kyler and this staff responds. Dealing with the Kyler that Kliff had to deal with is new to these guys, see if they adjust. Will KM be the starter if the team loses to SF and GB? That's a hard thing to think about. I think downgrading KM to #2 depends on how he does in each game and other factors he cannot control such as FO guidance. If the Cardinals losing streak continues to the end of October, I say there is a 50/50 of significant player and coach changes. I do think the communication between the coaching staff and the players is much improved with Gannon, Inc. The young players are engaged with the older players and coaches. I have seen no bitching and pouting. The 'TEAM' is solid. Everybody will do down with the ship if that's how it ends in Jan. |
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