Boomer
Pro Bowler
Posts: 1,488
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Post by Boomer on Jul 19, 2018 10:10:44 GMT -7
1 small correction Boomer, DJ did not have "1 great year". His rookie season was exceptional for the amount of time he got to play. His cleats and jersey are in the Hall of Fame from that Rookie season. 1st rookie to ever do what he did in the limited time he got to play. He's had 2 great seasons and 1 injury season caused by a head hunter safety. Just the facts. True, but that's still a long way from 3 full years of great play and the fact that he hasn't hit the playing field in over a year plus us having a new head coach and offensive coordinator. I'd like to see him on the field with all the newness before throwing a armored car full of money his way.
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biggs
Pro Bowler
Posts: 1,076
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Post by biggs on Jul 19, 2018 10:57:17 GMT -7
1 small correction Boomer, DJ did not have "1 great year". His rookie season was exceptional for the amount of time he got to play. His cleats and jersey are in the Hall of Fame from that Rookie season. 1st rookie to ever do what he did in the limited time he got to play. He's had 2 great seasons and 1 injury season caused by a head hunter safety. Just the facts. True, but that's still a long way from 3 full years of great play and the fact that he hasn't hit the playing field in over a year plus us having a new head coach and offensive coordinator. I'd like to see him on the field with all the newness before throwing a armored car full of money his way. That's the problem. Running backs take a huge amount of punishment and don't last long. DJ got over 400 touches in 15 games before getting injured the first time and was essentially triple teamed on the play where he broke his wrist. While teams don't want to pay running backs for exactly the reason you bring up DJ certainly should take his own personal welfare into account. He has been hurt twice being as part of the focal point of our O. He wants to get paid for the risk. Maybe he has reassessed the risk he is putting himself under vs. the pay in the contract he signed? He may not want to subject himself to that kind of risk for what is peanuts in NFL circles. He has every right to make that case. The Cardinals have to do what's in their best interest with a large roster to deal with and limited funds. DJ has to do what he has to do. The Cardinals have the leverage. Based on DJ's actually performance he has vastly outperformed the entire contract he signed. If I was the Cardinals I would play hardball. If I was DJ I wouldn't play another down on his current contract. The question is where will they meet?
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Boomer
Pro Bowler
Posts: 1,488
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Post by Boomer on Jul 19, 2018 11:35:22 GMT -7
True, but that's still a long way from 3 full years of great play and the fact that he hasn't hit the playing field in over a year plus us having a new head coach and offensive coordinator. I'd like to see him on the field with all the newness before throwing a armored car full of money his way. That's the problem. Running backs take a huge amount of punishment and don't last long. DJ got over 400 touches in 15 games before getting injured the first time and was essentially triple teamed on the play where he broke his wrist. While teams don't want to pay running backs for exactly the reason you bring up DJ certainly should take his own personal welfare into account. He has been hurt twice being as part of the focal point of our O. He wants to get paid for the risk. Maybe he has reassessed the risk he is putting himself under vs. the pay in the contract he signed? He may not want to subject himself to that kind of risk for what is peanuts in NFL circles. He has every right to make that case. The Cardinals have to do what's in their best interest with a large roster to deal with and limited funds. DJ has to do what he has to do. The Cardinals have the leverage. Based on DJ's actually performance he has vastly outperformed the entire contract he signed. If I was the Cardinals I would play hardball. If I was DJ I wouldn't play another down on his current contract. The question is where will they meet? "current contract" being the key words here.
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Post by knobby on Jul 19, 2018 12:18:04 GMT -7
True, but that's still a long way from 3 full years of great play and the fact that he hasn't hit the playing field in over a year plus us having a new head coach and offensive coordinator. I'd like to see him on the field with all the newness before throwing a armored car full of money his way. That's the problem. Running backs take a huge amount of punishment and don't last long. DJ got over 400 touches in 15 games before getting injured the first time and was essentially triple teamed on the play where he broke his wrist. While teams don't want to pay running backs for exactly the reason you bring up DJ certainly should take his own personal welfare into account. He has been hurt twice being as part of the focal point of our O. He wants to get paid for the risk. Maybe he has reassessed the risk he is putting himself under vs. the pay in the contract he signed? He may not want to subject himself to that kind of risk for what is peanuts in NFL circles. He has every right to make that case. The Cardinals have to do what's in their best interest with a large roster to deal with and limited funds. DJ has to do what he has to do. The Cardinals have the leverage. Based on DJ's actually performance he has vastly outperformed the entire contract he signed. If I was the Cardinals I would play hardball. If I was DJ I wouldn't play another down on his current contract. The question is where will they meet?
This quote may come into play, depending on timing: (don't recall where I got it - maybe Cards Wire comparing Bell's situation to DJ's)
"... Johnson has to report to camp no later than Aug. 7, or he would not be credited with an accrued season in 2018, which would mean he would be a restricted instead of unrestricted free agent at the end of 2018."
With Keim supposedly prohibited from contact with the Cards it could be a convenient excuse for the front office to delay past Aug. 7, thus gaining more leverage.
Despite this I hope all is resolved in time for the next phase of the preseason... but from the Cards' perspective maybe better to hold off until DJ is a RFA.
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Post by 70'sCardFan on Jul 19, 2018 13:19:39 GMT -7
With RFA status, does that mean,if he gets an offer from another team after the season the Cardinals get a chance to match the other teams offer before he can sign with that team? Or the Cardinals can franchise tag him and he has no choice but to stay. Still learning all this contract/trade stuff.
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Post by rooseveltcardsfan on Jul 19, 2018 13:36:08 GMT -7
The previous few posts are a great Synopsis of the current situation. Are both sides right, possibly. Are both sides wrong, that’s possible too. The idea of not negotiating before August 7th using the SK situation as an excuse, seems wrong to me. I’m a fan of both the Cardinals and DJ. And I understand the durability issue with The RB position. And I agree that a contract is a contract. But as a fan, I think DJ has outperformed his existing contract. As HB outperformed his rockie deal. The difference I see (as a fan) is HB would have been a 1st rounder, if he hadn’t had his off the field issues in college. And would have been paid 1st round money. I think the Cardinals made a mistake with his 2nd contract, because he had serious injuries prior to the contract. Did the Cardinals over pay him? I gues that’s in the eye of the beholder. But I don’t think you can compare the severity of the injuries HB incurred with the type of injury that DJ had to his wrist. So as a conclusion. I feel that it would be a great thing to see DJ get an extension, not a new deal per say. But something..not an armored car backing up to his front door and unloading pallets of cash. Something in the middle. And I reiterate, I am a fan of both.
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Post by rooseveltcardsfan on Jul 19, 2018 13:37:14 GMT -7
With RFA status, does that mean,if he gets an offer from another team after the season the Cardinals get a chance to match the other teams offer before he can sign with that team? Or the Cardinals can franchise tag him and he has no choice but to stay. Still learning all this contract/trade stuff. A restricted free agent has the ability to go out and make his best deal anywhere in the league. The Cardinals have the right to match that offer. That is my understanding.
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Post by Kyler_Murray26 on Jul 19, 2018 16:59:17 GMT -7
As a Cardinals fan, I'd hate to see him sit out but as a businessman, it's the smart thing to do.
Sit out the first week of training camp but also set expectations with management that you will not play underneath the franchise tag. Play the rest of your current contract out, with the expectations you will not under any circumstance play underneath the franchise tag. Sit out as long as you can and if you have the guts, threaten to retire if you don't think you're getting what your worth.
Don't get me wrong, I don't value RBs that high at all, but dudes gotta get paid while he can. Teams are smart and will milk as much out of a RB for 3-4 years and then ditch them at the first sign of regression.
Pay elite money to your QB, LT, DE and CB. Fill in the rest of your roster focusing more money on O-Line and front 7 of your D. Find average to slightly above players at WR/RB and go from there.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 17:47:05 GMT -7
1 small correction Boomer, DJ did not have "1 great year". His rookie season was exceptional for the amount of time he got to play. His cleats and jersey are in the Hall of Fame from that Rookie season. 1st rookie to ever do what he did in the limited time he got to play. He's had 2 great seasons and 1 injury season caused by a head hunter safety. Just the facts. True, but that's still a long way from 3 full years of great play and the fact that he hasn't hit the playing field in over a year plus us having a new head coach and offensive coordinator. I'd like to see him on the field with all the newness before throwing a armored car full of money his way. For someone that is living off of SS, All Nfl players get Armored trucks. (Would love to see a UDFA contract money come this way! Much less a drafted player's money.) Perspective.
But in today's reality of the NFL David is a unique talent that the Team needs to keep. And not treat cavalier or throw away.
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Post by JAB on Jul 19, 2018 18:09:02 GMT -7
With RFA status, does that mean,if he gets an offer from another team after the season the Cardinals get a chance to match the other teams offer before he can sign with that team? Or the Cardinals can franchise tag him and he has no choice but to stay. Still learning all this contract/trade stuff. A restricted free agent has the ability to go out and make his best deal anywhere in the league. The Cardinals have the right to match that offer. That is my understanding.
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Post by Rimrock on Jul 19, 2018 18:15:56 GMT -7
David aint going nowhere...they will work it out.....
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rdo3
Starter
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Post by rdo3 on Jul 19, 2018 18:34:31 GMT -7
any team can negotiate with any restricted free agent, transition player and even franchise player. the original team in all 3 cases have the right of first refusal meaning if the player accepts a contract from any team the original team then has the right to accept that contract also and it becomes the players new contract for his old team. essentiall both tag are rfa with additional conditions. transition tag can be applied to any unrestricted free agent to make them a restricted free agent. other teams wont put in as much effort for a rfa as ufa because they don't want to basically do all the work for the old team and if they over pay to the point its not worth it for the old team to match they kindda screwed themselves too. as a result to make it a bit more fair any player given the franchise tag gets a contract for the average of the top 10 salaries at his position. same goes for a franchise player with the exception that they are garenteed the average of the top 5 salaries at their position if the old team declines to match they get the next two 1st round draft picks of the new team. with rfa and franchise the new teams aren't forced to give the old team any picks.
an unrestricted free agent can sign any offer they want so the old team will have to not only match but exceed the offer to keep the player in most cases and in case of matching offers it becomes the players option not the teams. some times a player may accept the lower offer if they want a championship and things the lower bidding team gives them a better chance, they prefer a certain coach, city or what ever but it becones 100% the players option to sign with any team that makes him an offer for any reason.
it would cost the team 4.8 mill guarantee to transition tag dj if he becomes a ufa and 8.9 mill to franchise him. if he sits out the year there is no reason to franchise him and garentee dj two cents. they will have the right to match any offer he gets next year without wasting the tag on him. the team would retain his rights. same for the year after that. sitting out two years would mean he would be asking for a job a being over 30 years old, hasn't played a down in 3 years, and only had one good year in his past 6. remember how good DeMarco murry was? he retired. if dj holds out this year of corse he wont be playing under the franchise tag, other than getting the guaranteed 2 first round picks they give up nothing, but the also get off the hook of being required to offer him a minimum of almost 9 million for the year. nobody is going to give up 2 1st round picks for a running back that hasn't played in 2 years and is almost 30, has already peaked and its all down hill from here. franchising him is what he is hopeing for. at 30 nobody is gonna give him a long term guaranteed contract because he is going to decline every year from now on. look at Adrian Peterson after his long layoff and he didn't just shop potential didn't have just one good year, he and many great years. he got past 30 and suddenly it went poof. he's not getting long term guarantees either for the same reason, there is no way he is going to earn the money so there is no reasonable reason to give it. dj is going to have to sign a short term contract to get guarantees on the potential he has 1 or two good years left in him. he could also have a long term incentive driven contract where he only gets paid if he earns it. but he is holding out for conditions that would require him to be the best running back as an old man in a young mans game, something that has never happened before and probably never will. he probably has two good years left in him, if he wants to sit those out he might as well retire now. why should a team bet on his potential and be on the hook when that's exactly what he refuses to do. he makes big brags and promises, but when asked to put it in writing he wont. if he can guarantee the cards everything he is promising the cards would pay him, but even he knows he wont and that's the same reason the cards wont. the cards are guaranteeing him exactly as much as he is guaranteeing them. if dj chooses to retire that's up to him, and is evidently his choice. if he sits out this year he sits out forever and will. he's not even going to get the money he would have gotten under his current contract. looking out for his family by giving up 2 million dollars? makes no sense yet that's whats happening. he got rosenbaughed. he's too scared now and will never be the same player. that's why he wants it all gaurenteed now before he pisses his pants when the ball is snapped. he wants the cards to bet the house on a losing hand so there is a huge pot for him to grab on his way out.
he could get hurt and not be able to produce just like last year? very true. what is guaranteed to the team then? nothing. then why should he get a guaranteed salary? if he's that worried let him buy an insurance plan to cover his losses. guaranteeing him even if he doesn't produce means that money has to come out of the cap, out of the pockets of his fellow players who aren't getting the money they are earning / deserve so he can have what he doesn't deserve. I've heard of Lloyds of London, i'm sure he has too. if he really believes in himself there is his guarantee, but he doesn't believe in himself any more than I do. he could be guaranteed millions of dollars via loyds but he would rather sit because if he cant produce because he just doesn't have it anymore not because of injury Lloyds would have to pay either.
sitting out and giving up 2 million dollars is not smart when it almost guarantees last year was the last cent you earned in the nfl, it is also giving up millions next year. if the cards had to transition tag him he would be guaranteed 4 million, if they don't have to transition tag him he is garenteed nfl minimum for a 5th year player if they sign him which is only 805k. he is throwing away 3 millions garmented money. that's giving up 5 million in two years. if they had to transition him 2 years in a row he would be garenteed over 10 mill in 2020 due to the 20% minimum salary increase. so he would be giving up 5 million more garenteed money. that's 10 million in 3 years of garenteed money. now how smart is it to give up a garenteed 10 mill? and the only way its possible not garented is a) he sits out or b) he cant produce next year and no team wants him. if he's not a guaranteed flop there is no reason to sit out.
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Post by 70'sCardFan on Jul 19, 2018 18:38:21 GMT -7
A restricted free agent has the ability to go out and make his best deal anywhere in the league. The Cardinals have the right to match that offer. That is my understanding. Thanks JAB for the link. I got better understanding now how that works.
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Post by knobby on Jul 19, 2018 20:43:45 GMT -7
any team can negotiate with any restricted free agent, transition player and even franchise player. the original team in all 3 cases have the right of first refusal meaning if the player accepts a contract from any team the original team then has the right to accept that contract also and it becomes the players new contract for his old team. essentiall both tag are rfa with additional conditions. transition tag can be applied to any unrestricted free agent to make them a restricted free agent. other teams wont put in as much effort for a rfa as ufa because they don't want to basically do all the work for the old team and if they over pay to the point its not worth it for the old team to match they kindda screwed themselves too. as a result to make it a bit more fair any player given the franchise tag gets a contract for the average of the top 10 salaries at his position. same goes for a franchise player with the exception that they are garenteed the average of the top 5 salaries at their position if the old team declines to match they get the next two 1st round draft picks of the new team. with rfa and franchise the new teams aren't forced to give the old team any picks. an unrestricted free agent can sign any offer they want so the old team will have to not only match but exceed the offer to keep the player in most cases and in case of matching offers it becomes the players option not the teams. some times a player may accept the lower offer if they want a championship and things the lower bidding team gives them a better chance, they prefer a certain coach, city or what ever but it becones 100% the players option to sign with any team that makes him an offer for any reason. it would cost the team 4.8 mill guarantee to transition tag dj if he becomes a ufa and 8.9 mill to franchise him. if he sits out the year there is no reason to franchise him and garentee dj two cents. they will have the right to match any offer he gets next year without wasting the tag on him. the team would retain his rights. same for the year after that. sitting out two years would mean he would be asking for a job a being over 30 years old, hasn't played a down in 3 years, and only had one good year in his past 6. remember how good DeMarco murry was? he retired. if dj holds out this year of corse he wont be playing under the franchise tag, other than getting the guaranteed 2 first round picks they give up nothing, but the also get off the hook of being required to offer him a minimum of almost 9 million for the year. nobody is going to give up 2 1st round picks for a running back that hasn't played in 2 years and is almost 30, has already peaked and its all down hill from here. franchising him is what he is hopeing for. at 30 nobody is gonna give him a long term guaranteed contract because he is going to decline every year from now on. look at Adrian Peterson after his long layoff and he didn't just shop potential didn't have just one good year, he and many great years. he got past 30 and suddenly it went poof. he's not getting long term guarantees either for the same reason, there is no way he is going to earn the money so there is no reasonable reason to give it. dj is going to have to sign a short term contract to get guarantees on the potential he has 1 or two good years left in him. he could also have a long term incentive driven contract where he only gets paid if he earns it. but he is holding out for conditions that would require him to be the best running back as an old man in a young mans game, something that has never happened before and probably never will. he probably has two good years left in him, if he wants to sit those out he might as well retire now. why should a team bet on his potential and be on the hook when that's exactly what he refuses to do. he makes big brags and promises, but when asked to put it in writing he wont. if he can guarantee the cards everything he is promising the cards would pay him, but even he knows he wont and that's the same reason the cards wont. the cards are guaranteeing him exactly as much as he is guaranteeing them. if dj chooses to retire that's up to him, and is evidently his choice. if he sits out this year he sits out forever and will. he's not even going to get the money he would have gotten under his current contract. looking out for his family by giving up 2 million dollars? makes no sense yet that's whats happening. he got rosenbaughed. he's too scared now and will never be the same player. that's why he wants it all gaurenteed now before he pisses his pants when the ball is snapped. he wants the cards to bet the house on a losing hand so there is a huge pot for him to grab on his way out. he could get hurt and not be able to produce just like last year? very true. what is guaranteed to the team then? nothing. then why should he get a guaranteed salary? if he's that worried let him buy an insurance plan to cover his losses. guaranteeing him even if he doesn't produce means that money has to come out of the cap, out of the pockets of his fellow players who aren't getting the money they are earning / deserve so he can have what he doesn't deserve. I've heard of Lloyds of London, i'm sure he has too. if he really believes in himself there is his guarantee, but he doesn't believe in himself any more than I do. he could be guaranteed millions of dollars via loyds but he would rather sit because if he cant produce because he just doesn't have it anymore not because of injury Lloyds would have to pay either. sitting out and giving up 2 million dollars is not smart when it almost guarantees last year was the last cent you earned in the nfl, it is also giving up millions next year. if the cards had to transition tag him he would be guaranteed 4 million, if they don't have to transition tag him he is garenteed nfl minimum for a 5th year player if they sign him which is only 805k. he is throwing away 3 millions garmented money. that's giving up 5 million in two years. if they had to transition him 2 years in a row he would be garenteed over 10 mill in 2020 due to the 20% minimum salary increase. so he would be giving up 5 million more garenteed money. that's 10 million in 3 years of garenteed money. now how smart is it to give up a garenteed 10 mill? and the only way its possible not garented is a) he sits out or b) he cant produce next year and no team wants him. if he's not a guaranteed flop there is no reason to sit out. Wow. A bit difficult to read but some good info and thinking buried in there.
If I understand your position, either DJ himself or his agent are barking up the wrong tree, in practical, historic terms. Neither (none) of us knows DJ well enough to make an accurate guess if it he who is making decisions, but I get the impression that it is probably the agent's instructions being followed. In that case, I can't understand his logic in choosing holding out as the best way to go.
There is the possibility that DJ has so much faith in his ability that he cannot believe his career would end as you describe, and to me that makes the most sense. Young guys think they are invincible, as the old saying goes. I hope your Rosenbaugh example does not apply to DJ.
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biggs
Pro Bowler
Posts: 1,076
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Post by biggs on Jul 20, 2018 7:44:01 GMT -7
DJ can do anything he wants in life. He has his health, a good head on his shoulders, charisma and a couple of million dollars in earnings in his 20's. To think that Football is his only option is insane. If he walked away today and invested in his future he is likely to make more money, live longer and with less pain than if he played football. Of course if he actually gets a new contract or becomes one of the few to make it to FA or gets tagged he might well do better playing football? He has an amazing amount of great options the question the Cardinals have to ask themselves, is does he actually know that?
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