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Post by CardCore on Oct 31, 2024 7:56:53 GMT -7
Dev? Your assumption that “out and out pass rushers” are the size of Reddick is off base IMO. His stature was likely the main reason he was relegated (mistakenly) to ILB. Yes, he’s a darn good pass rusher, but amongst the smallest ever. Keep in mind these guys are trying to fight their way amongst / around OLinemen to reach the QB… Reddick is more an anomaly than the perfect sized pass rusher. Again, IMO. |
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Post by Dry Heat on Oct 31, 2024 10:47:15 GMT -7
Our front seven is weak in both run defense and pressures/sacks. Few players have the size plus athletic ability to really be good at both. These are my opinions for the some of the guys we are discussing here.
Reddick: still a trade possibility IMO as his new contract was only for this season, and the Jets stink. He has history with both the Cardinals org and Gannon. Cards did not get best out of him but did give him his shot in the NFL. Gannon as DC did get the best out of him. But he’s “older” at 30, only 6’-1”/240. A smaller guy for Edge, and can get pressures and sacks though I don’t think is good at run defense, containment or coverage. Correct me if wrong.
DRob: I’m putting him in here as he will soon, finally, be a piece of our defense. He’s raw, gonna have rookie mistakes, but wow the potential! Size for interior or athleticism for edge, only 23 and 6’-5”/296 and an instant rush defense upgrade who will be disruptive if he’s inside or a potential massive threat on passing downs from the outside. Being sacked by a slow 330 lb NT is scary but being hit by a fast, athletic, muscular 300lb OLB with a full head of steam from the blind side is life threatening. IMO we need a compliment who can keep double teams off of him.
The Ojulari bros: these two are not just bros. Both edge, both almost the same size at 6’-2” and 6’3”, both around 240-245 lbs, one 22 and one 24, both drafted in the second round, #40 pick and #42 pick. LSU and Georgia. Just incredibly similar. My question…do we want two carbon copy OLBs on each side, who are not huge guys and would be more sack specialist pass play weapons but maybe not as good on run, containment and coverage? As discussed above A. Ojulari should be affordable from a draft pick cost perspective, as the giants are unlikely to re-sign him.
Chase Young: Here we have a shot at a guy who was a “bust” as a #2 pick, but not a bust overall as an NFL front seven player. In other words he failed so far as an annual pro bowler yet is still a better than average defensive player..and still only 25. Size wise, he falls between the Ojulari’s and Robinson at 6’-5” and 265 lbs. He’s not getting ridiculous sack numbers but his pressures are excellent so he is disrupting. No one is going to need to double team an Ojulari bro at 6’-2”, 240. 6’-5”, 265…now we are talking. Like Ojulari, the Saints should be sellers and IMO even more as they need picks desperately with major cap issues ahead the Giants don’t face as much.
Zaven Collins: we need to discuss his role as he has a new contract with us and while some have complained about his lack of sacks and therefore see him as useless, in truth he is one of our highest rated front seven defenders (72.6 PFF) making up for the lack of QB pressure with top 5 scoring for his position in tackles and run defense. Still only 25 and a nice size for an edge…6’-4”/260. A bit smaller than Young. He won’t be cut or traded…the dead money hits for 2024 and 2025 are too big with no cap relief.
My thought is we have a potential future stud who can be flexible and an every down defender in DRob who can be used inside or at the edge, giving the DC an absolute weapon to move around and cause opposing DC’s nightmares to plan for. Zaven Collins gives us a situational edge player when you don’t know if it’s run or pass. BJ Ojulari next year, and potentially rookie Xavier Thomas (25 yo, 6’-2”, 255) provide the pass rush specialist edge. I don’t know that the other Ojulari adds enough that BJ and Xavier can already provide.
The more I think about it, I’d rather roll the dice that Chase Young can be the compliment to DRob as another huge DE/edge type who can command double teams (or keep them off DRob) and be a 3 down player, with Collins and BJ/Xavier Thomas used situationally. If we could have DRob, Young, Collins, BJ Ojualari and Xavier Thomas under contract through the next few years and all 25 yrs old or under, we can move past Gardeck and really focus 2025 free agency money (we have a ton) and the early draft on getting interior Dline studs and Oline studs (early rounds) and ILB studs (middle rounds).
Go get Chase and let him have his best years under Gannon/Rallis, who has helped other defenders be the best version of themselves.
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Post by CardCore on Oct 31, 2024 11:41:11 GMT -7
Our front seven is weak in both run defense and pressures/sacks. Few players have the size plus athletic ability to really be good at both. These are my opinions for the some of the guys we are discussing here. Reddick: still a trade possibility IMO as his new contract was only for this season, and the Jets stink. He has history with both the Cardinals org and Gannon. Cards did not get best out of him but did give him his shot in the NFL. Gannon as DC did get the best out of him. But he’s “older” at 30, only 6’-1”/240. A smaller guy for Edge, and can get pressures and sacks though I don’t think is good at run defense, containment or coverage. Correct me if wrong. DRob: I’m putting him in here as he will soon, finally, be a piece of our defense. He’s raw, gonna have rookie mistakes, but wow the potential! Size for interior or athleticism for edge, only 23 and 6’-5”/296 and an instant rush defense upgrade who will be disruptive if he’s inside or a potential massive threat on passing downs from the outside. Being sacked by a slow 330 lb NT is scary but being hit by a fast, athletic, muscular 300lb OLB with a full head of steam from the blind side is life threatening. IMO we need a compliment who can keep double teams off of him. The Ojulari bros: these two are not just bros. Both edge, both almost the same size at 6’-2” and 6’3”, both around 240-245 lbs, one 22 and one 24, both drafted in the second round, #40 pick and #42 pick. LSU and Georgia. Just incredibly similar. My question…do we want two carbon copy OLBs on each side, who are not huge guys and would be more sack specialist pass play weapons but maybe not as good on run, containment and coverage? As discussed above A. Ojulari should be affordable from a draft pick cost perspective, as the giants are unlikely to re-sign him. Chase Young: Here we have a shot at a guy who was a “bust” as a #2 pick, but not a bust overall as an NFL front seven player. In other words he failed so far as an annual pro bowler yet is still a better than average defensive player..and still only 25. Size wise, he falls between the Ojulari’s and Robinson at 6’-5” and 265 lbs. He’s not getting ridiculous sack numbers but his pressures are excellent so he is disrupting. No one is going to need to double team an Ojulari bro at 6’-2”, 240. 6’-5”, 265…now we are talking. Like Ojulari, the Saints should be sellers and IMO even more as they need picks desperately with major cap issues ahead the Giants don’t face as much. Zaven Collins: we need to discuss his role as he has a new contract with us and while some have complained about his lack of sacks and therefore see him as useless, in truth he is one of our highest rated front seven defenders (72.6 PFF) making up for the lack of QB pressure with top 5 scoring for his position in tackles and run defense. Still only 25 and a nice size for an edge…6’-4”/260. A bit smaller than Young. He won’t be cut or traded…the dead money hits for 2024 and 2025 are too big with no cap relief. My thought is we have a potential future stud who can be flexible and an every down defender in DRob who can be used inside or at the edge, giving the DC an absolute weapon to move around and cause opposing DC’s nightmares to plan for. Zaven Collins gives us a situational edge player when you don’t know if it’s run or pass. BJ Ojulari next year, and potentially rookie Xavier Thomas (25 yo, 6’-2”, 255) provide the pass rush specialist edge. I don’t know that the other Ojulari adds enough that BJ and Xavier can already provide. The more I think about it, I’d rather roll the dice that Chase Young can be the compliment to DRob as another huge DE/edge type who can command double teams (or keep them off DRob) and be a 3 down player, with Collins and BJ/Xavier Thomas used situationally. If we could have DRob, Young, Collins, BJ Ojualari and Xavier Thomas under contract through the next few years and all 25 yrs old or under, we can move past Gardeck and really focus 2025 free agency money (we have a ton) and the early draft on getting interior Dline studs and Oline studs (early rounds) and ILB studs (middle rounds). Go get Chase and let him have his best years under Gannon/Rallis, who has helped other defenders be the best version of themselves. Thanks for the thoughtful post DH. The one thing I've been wondering is what kind of relationship Azeez and BJ have as brothers. Would they love the idea of having the chance to join forces against opposing QB's in a combined effort to take them down? Or would the idea not be appealing to one or both? Then, of course, sometimes brothers can get in squabbles and such, so maybe it would not be the best idea....it could turn into a distraction possibly, unless they could keep it on a professional level. Depends entirely on their relationship I suppose. Then again, MO or JG may be against the idea and blackball it from the get-go. I hadn't gone as far as imagining Young in concert with DR, but that could be quite the combo! I like it. |
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Post by knobby on Oct 31, 2024 13:41:57 GMT -7
Go get Chase and let him have his best years under Gannon/Rallis, who has helped other defenders be the best version of themselves. Could help get a win or two, but Monte might be thinking he's too expensive as he's currently earning $13M/yr. How does that fit with our young and cheap rebuild concept? I'd (almost) bet we tough this year out as is, and keep/seek picks... |
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Post by Vesely22 on Oct 31, 2024 13:49:18 GMT -7
It would be nice if we could sign someone who can help us this year and be under control next year. The longer this goes on, the more I think we are going to stand pat. Hard to say we are building a culture with the guys but then make a trade to replace a current player.
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Post by Dry Heat on Oct 31, 2024 13:53:01 GMT -7
Go get Chase and let him have his best years under Gannon/Rallis, who has helped other defenders be the best version of themselves. Could help get a win or two, but Monte might be thinking he's too expensive as he's currently earning $13M/yr. How does that fit with our young and cheap rebuild concept? I'd (almost) bet we tough this year out as is, and keep/seek picks... He’d be half that since we are mid-season. $7 million would be WELL worth a win that in this season and conference might be what it takes to get us into the playoffs. The bigger picture would be giving him a tryout for a contract next year and beyond if he looks like an answer for our system. Young and cheap is the beginning of a wise rebuild, as it takes a few years of that to clear bad contracts and dead money and gather up massive cap space and develop rookies and sophomores. We are entering the “.finishing up the roster” phase, spending the cap wisely make the playoffs. Once you’re a playoff team, you add vet rentals to push you into Super Bowl contention. Chase Young would not be the most expensive 2-4 year contract you see on NFL defensive lines. |
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Post by CardsFanQC on Nov 1, 2024 4:08:05 GMT -7
Chase Young looks like it would be a rental (with chance to get him in the building and bond with teammates increasing chance to sign him as a FA if desired) at a cost of about $5M on the cap. I believe the "void" years on his contract would be accelerated on the Saints books for cap purposes. His salary of $2.7M and per game roster bonus (I assume) would be on the Cardinals books for cap purposes. I may be wrong but it would seem you take the salary of $2.7M and add the annual per game bonus allocation of $7.99M totaling $10,690,000 for 2024 total $$ to be included. The $10,690,000 divided by 17 game season equals $628,824/game and for the Cards he would be an 8 game "rental" @ $628,824/game or a total of $5.31M. Now I am not totally positive of the above math but when you look at overthecap and note that Amari Cooper is only a $807,000 cap hit for the Bills ... it definitely appears the void years' dollars will be taken care of by the Browns for cap purposes. Amari Cooper Cap Hit to the BillsConsidering MB and the Cardinals would love to win the NFC West and host a playoff game which would generate probably 3-4x the revenue of the rental cost of Chase Young. CY would also get acquainted with the coaching staff, players and Phoenix winters. Is it possible that Chase Young at only age 25 took several years of maturing to finally develop into a quality EDGE player because 13 out of 191 Edge Players in pressures is pretty darn good. We might know if Young is on the move soon if he is sat out of their game vs. Panthers on Sunday. |
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Post by Redbirdfan62 on Nov 1, 2024 5:48:12 GMT -7
If we can get better this year do it otherwise look to the draft.
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Post by CardsFanQC on Nov 1, 2024 7:12:35 GMT -7
If we can get better this year do it otherwise look to the draft. If Monti doesn't get anyone (and the trade deadline market has teams securing good players for LOW-prices) then he is going to have to spend the first four picks of the 2025 NFL draft on DL-Edge-CB-OL. Right now there isn't any a big difference maker available on the DL so for now it is DRob's return and the 1st round pick targeting the best available DL. As far as the other need positions - - EDGE -- in this order of priority: Azeez Ojulari/Chase Young/Harold Landry/Payton Turner
- CB - Panthers having fire sale - Jaycee Horn with alternate potential of Jags Campbell/Browns Newsome (He had good years 2021-2023 but his performance has been down in 2024).
- OL - Priority of trying to get Evan Neal (Giants)
Would love for Monti to get 2 of the guys above which then provides the team a lot more flexibility when the 2025 draft approaches. Solving some depth at 2 of the 4 critical needs via cheap trades for proven players sets up the rebuild to look really good for 2025 while also greatly helping a chance for a home playoff game in January.
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Post by Redbirdfan62 on Nov 1, 2024 12:41:19 GMT -7
If we can get better this year do it otherwise look to the draft. If Monti doesn't get anyone (and the trade deadline market has teams securing good players for LOW-prices) then he is going to have to spend the first four picks of the 2025 NFL draft on DL-Edge-CB-OL. Right now there isn't any a big difference maker available on the DL so for now it is DRob's return and the 1st round pick targeting the best available DL. As far as the other need positions - - EDGE -- in this order of priority: Azeez Ojulari/Chase Young/Harold Landry/Payton Turner
- CB - Panthers having fire sale - Jaycee Horn with alternate potential of Jags Campbell/Browns Newsome (He had good years 2021-2023 but his performance has been down in 2024).
- OL - Priority of trying to get Evan Neal (Giants)
Would love for Monti to get 2 of the guys above which then provides the team a lot more flexibility when the 2025 draft approaches. Solving some depth at 2 of the 4 critical needs via cheap trades for proven players sets up the rebuild to look really good for 2025 while also greatly helping a chance for a home playoff game in January.
I am all for giving up picks for a proven commodity always have been. I am not one to treat them like gold unless we have our sights on a Qb. |
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Post by Dry Heat on Nov 1, 2024 14:41:15 GMT -7
If we can get better this year do it otherwise look to the draft. If Monti doesn't get anyone (and the trade deadline market has teams securing good players for LOW-prices) then he is going to have to spend the first four picks of the 2025 NFL draft on DL-Edge-CB-OL. Right now there isn't any a big difference maker available on the DL so for now it is DRob's return and the 1st round pick targeting the best available DL. As far as the other need positions - - EDGE -- in this order of priority: Azeez Ojulari/Chase Young/Harold Landry/Payton Turner
- CB - Panthers having fire sale - Jaycee Horn with alternate potential of Jags Campbell/Browns Newsome (He had good years 2021-2023 but his performance has been down in 2024).
- OL - Priority of trying to get Evan Neal (Giants)
Would love for Monti to get 2 of the guys above which then provides the team a lot more flexibility when the 2025 draft approaches. Solving some depth at 2 of the 4 critical needs via cheap trades for proven players sets up the rebuild to look really good for 2025 while also greatly helping a chance for a home playoff game in January.
If we can spend a relatively low draft pick and cap cost on a player who might both give us an extra critical win to make the playoffs (and have a better roster in them), plus take care of one of the needs we know we have going into 2025 free agency and draft, I think it would be wise. I explained above why I’m leaning Chase Young over a guy like A. Ojulari. Another guy who would be more expensive but under contract until 2026 would be the Bengals Trey Hendrickson. 6’-4”, 270 lbs, 29 yrs old, DE stud. Think the flailing Bengals would be willing to talk? Or the Raiders? Maxx Crosby? 6’-5”, 255 lbs, 27 yrs old, DE stud. I’d feel much better going into 2025 with sophomore DRob, proven vet in upper 20’s Chase Young/Hendrickson/Crosby, and a healthy BJ Ojulari and be able to go after another giant like 6’-6”, 345 lb DL Deanne Walker, who some mock drafts are already projecting for us in the late 1st round. |
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Post by cardinalsins on Nov 2, 2024 9:25:07 GMT -7
Russini from The Athletic has us in the Ojulari market.
Interestingly enough, she states that the Bengals are shopping for a DE. So Hendrickson is likely staying. The exception is that might be trying to get younger and cheaper at DE, but I doubt the Bengals let him go.
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Post by cardinalsins on Nov 2, 2024 9:31:48 GMT -7
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Post by cardinalsins on Nov 2, 2024 10:12:19 GMT -7
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Post by MT Diesel on Nov 2, 2024 10:38:03 GMT -7
Bleacher Report, by Mike Chiari quote:
While the Giants defense has benefited from having that type of depth, Fowler said there is a belief Ojulari will be the "odd man out" once Thibodeaux returns.
Couple that with the fact that Ojulari is set to hit free agency at the end of the season, and there is plenty of incentive for the Giants to get something of value for him in a trade.
Fowler named the Arizona Cardinals as a potential landing spot for Ojulari since his brother, BJ Ojulari, plays for the team.
BJ Ojulari is out for the season, though, the Cards could use a pass-rushing boost in his absence, as they ranks 24th in the NFL with 15 sacks.
At 4-4, the Cardinals are in a three-way tie for first place in the NFC West, and they have a golden opportunity to move to 5-4 if they can beat the Chicago Bears at home on Sunday.
Should that happen, Arizona would perhaps be a buyer at the deadline, and Ojulari would potentially be an excellent fit.
The Detroit Lions also have to be considered as a possible landing spot for Ojulari since they lost superstar pass-rusher Aidan Hutchinson for the season recently and have yet to truly replace him.
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