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Post by jeffcardinalfan on Mar 16, 2024 3:06:35 GMT -7
If the Vikings come calling if I'm Monty then I'm calling the Giants to see if I can get more from them.
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Post by FLCardinalFan on Mar 16, 2024 3:57:50 GMT -7
Assurance over logic any day The points do matter to a degree. The QBS all have a premium but when 3 out of 4 are drafted that puts a bigger premium on the one left. If a team really wants him they move up. Case in point 49ers went all the way up to #3rd overall. That gave them the assurance of getting their guy.
At 4 The Cardinals can only say no if they really want Harrison But they can trade down if not and get more draft capital. Monti lost last year's trade down in hindsight ( See my post on that). Trade points matter because Teams use the charts. Florida, Are you talking about the QB that Purdy replaced? How did that turn out? Florida, Are you talking about the QB that Purdy replaced? How did that turn out? Right, in hindsight we can say how it turned out but to get Trey Lance The 49ers had to assure themselves that they got him. Any pick can fail which that one did. Cardinalsins has a post below from Daniel Jeremiah Here is his quote which is what I am talking about "1.) He speculates the Vikings could have an assured landing spot with the Cardinals at 4."
To be sure you want McCarthy , you best pay up to get him. <FLCF
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Post by CardsFanQC on Mar 16, 2024 9:54:29 GMT -7
Could the Cards get - AND also pick up an "extra" 2025 1st rounder or 2nd rounder in the trade ? #11 - Dallas Turner, Edge Alabama #23 - Byron Murphy JR, DT - Texas #27 - Terrion Arnold CB - Alabama or Nate Wiggins CB - Clemson #35 - Brian Thomas Jr. WR - LSU I've been thinking and a trade with Vikings, another alternative for using these picks could be: - #11 - Byron Murphy Jr. DT - Texas (I don't think Byron will make it to #23)
- #23 - Quinyon Mitchell CB - Toledo
- #27 - Trade this pick along with Budda Baker to the Bengals for Tee Higgins (while I think Brian Thomas and Xavier Leggette might be good pros - I like the sure thing with Tee Higgins.
- #35 - Some "smoke" is that Latu will slide around bottom of 1st or top of 2nd round) - Latu UCLA Edge
Note if Cardinals are worried about Latu's medicals, then go get Darius Robinson DL/Edge Missouri.
After trading Budda and his salary cap #, go get Justin Simmons Safety (former Bronco) for 3 yrs. $35M - $38M.
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Post by Redbirdfan62 on Mar 16, 2024 13:13:19 GMT -7
Could the Cards get - AND also pick up an "extra" 2025 1st rounder or 2nd rounder in the trade ? #11 - Dallas Turner, Edge Alabama #23 - Byron Murphy JR, DT - Texas #27 - Terrion Arnold CB - Alabama or Nate Wiggins CB - Clemson #35 - Brian Thomas Jr. WR - LSU I've been thinking and a trade with Vikings, another alternative for using these picks could be: - #11 - Byron Murphy Jr. DT - Texas (I don't think Byron will make it to #23)
- #23 - Quinyon Mitchell CB - Toledo
- #27 - Trade this pick along with Budda Baker to the Bengals for Tee Higgins (while I think Brian Thomas and Xavier Leggette might be good pros - I like the sure thing with Tee Higgins.
- #35 - Some "smoke" is that Latu will slide around bottom of 1st or top of 2nd round) - Latu UCLA Edge
Note if Cardinals are worried about Latu's medicals, then go get Darius Robinson DL/Edge Missouri.
After trading Budda and his salary cap #, go get Justin Simmons Safety (former Bronco) for 3 yrs. $35M - $38M.
Hard pass you can do better Minnesota is desperate JJ involved or no deal I know that is not likely but they have a lot of mouths to feed and no Qb. Whoever deals with Minnesota have the advantage on them.
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Post by Redbirdfan62 on Mar 16, 2024 13:15:06 GMT -7
I think Minnesota stays where they are and hope a Qb falls to them.
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Post by flash on Mar 16, 2024 13:19:19 GMT -7
Florida, Are you talking about the QB that Purdy replaced? How did that turn out? Florida, Are you talking about the QB that Purdy replaced? How did that turn out? Right, in hindsight we can say how it turned out but to get Trey Lance The 49ers had to assure themselves that they got him. Any pick can fail which that one did. Cardinalsins has a post below from Daniel Jeremiah Here is his quote which is what I am talking about "1.) He speculates the Vikings could have an assured landing spot with the Cardinals at 4."
To be sure you want McCarthy , you best pay up to get him. <FLCF
"you best pay up to get him"
Are we getting paid enough for that pick when Marvin is sitting there waiting for us to draft him?
So, if we trade with the Vikings, we end up with #11 pick and #23 pick and #27 picks. By #11 pick, Marvin, Odunze and Nabers will be likely gone. Let us say Marvin is a generational talent. We have this ranking on WR's.
1. Marvin Harrison Jr. (Generational WR) 2. Odunze/Nabers (Elite WR which both are projected to be selected by pick #9) 3. All other projected first round WR's (Not the caliber of the 3 above)
So, my question is who are we taking for a WR to become our #1 WR? At pick #11, we have to go with a later 1rst round projected or 2nd round projected WR to become our #1 WR. Can we find that second round WR? Kirk and Bolden were the closest to that, but Bolden was #2 behind Fitzgerald and Kirk was #2 behind Hopkins. Could any of the WR's projected in the first round after the 11th pick or later be better than a Boldin or Kirk? Would Boldin or Kirk been good enough to be our #1 WR? We gave a 1rst round pick for Hollywood. Though that should have been a second round pick, either way he was drafted in the first round with the 25th overall pick. As it turned out, he was not a true #1 WR. We could probably find Hollywoods replacement with either the 11th, 23rd or 27th pick. But would that WR be a true #1 WR? The other thing to keep in mind is that would we use any of our 3 first round picks on a WR or would we go Oline, CB or Pass Rusher? Hmm...food for thought.
My opinion on the point system you mentioned is this...it is flawed! Why? Because of this:
The points for the #4 pick are 1800 points from what you mentioned. Do those points account for the caliber of the player? Here are those picks for the past 10 drafts.
#4 Picks in the past 10 drafts:
Anthony Richardson-2023 Sauce Gardner-2022 Kyle Pitts-2021 Andrew Thomas-2020 Clelin Ferrell-2019 Denzel Ward-2018 Leonard Fournette-2017 Ezekiel Elliot-2016 Amari Cooper-2015 Sammy Watkins-2014
Does the point system account for the player? Would you rather have Sauce Gardner or Kyle Pitts? Would you rather have Leonard Fournette or Ezekiel Elliot? Would you rather have Amari Cooper or Sammy Watkins? Assigning 1800 points to the #4 pick does not reflect the true value of the pick, that is determined by the player selected. Are you following me?
Now, let's look at the #11 picks in the past 10 drafts:
Peter Skoronski-2023 Chris Olave-2022 Justin Fields-2021 Mekhi Becton-2020 Jonah Williams-2019 Minkah Fitzpatrick-2018 Marshon Lattimore-2017 Vernon Hargreaves III-2016 Trae Waynes-2015 Taylor Lewan-2014
I see 3 very good players above...Olave, Fitzpatrick and Lattimore. 3 out of 10 are not very good odds at getting a great player with the #11 pick much less a generational player.
If we make the trade to #11 pick, who is Murray going to throw the ball to? McBride? Wilson? Dortch? A rookie(not an elite rookie)? We would have to be very lucky to land an excellent WR in the late first round or second round. If we can't do that, then McBride would be our number one receiver if we use our stats from last season. None of our WR's/TE's broke 1000 receiving yards.
So Florida, I can't agree with you that the point system has any degree of the worth of the #4 pick in the draft. They are just numbers and do not take the hidden factors into consideration.
Your rebuttal?
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Post by vwvectors on Mar 16, 2024 13:40:13 GMT -7
Word today that the Vikings have traded to receive the #23rd pick from the Texans, and giving up pick 42, 188 and a 2nd rounder next year. They also hold pick #11. IMO, they would only be doing this because they were unable to re-sign Cousins and are planning to move up to secure their QBOF. I don’t think any of the top three will trade out and give up their shots at the top three QBs. Vikings are said to be enamored with JJ McCarthy. Do they not want to risk losing out on their QB? According to the 2024 draft trade chart, our #4 pick is worth 1800 points. #11 plus #23 would be 2010 points. Would that be enough of a QB tax to entice the Cardinals into a trade? We would then have picks #11, 23 and 27 in the first round, as well as #35 in the second and #66, 71 and 90 in the third. Might they add fourth round pick #108 as well? We already own pick #104. Could we land nine of the top 100 players in this deep draft? What are your thoughts on this one? I’d be interested. My thoughts?
First of all, does any other team besides the Vikings need a QB and have two first round picks?
The Bears, Cardinals and Vikings have two first round draft picks. The Bears will take Caleb more than likely. We will not take a QB. So, why would the Vikings trade with the Chargers instead of us and pay less than to us? Would we actually give up our #4 pick that does not have two first round picks? I don't think that will happen.
So, it really does not matter how many points the trades are worth...it is not going to happen for us. Even a team that does not have two first round picks would probably try to trade up with the Chargers and not us to get McCarthy....
Is my logic not correct?
When the Chiefs traded up (above us) to get Mahommes they paid a little bit more. I think the Chiefs halfway through Mahommes rookie season had zero regrets. If I’m a GM & I gotta gamble big on a position to pay off the most it’s QB.
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Post by End Zone on Mar 16, 2024 13:46:47 GMT -7
Had a little fun with the idea of taking the Vikings' picks. Basically fixed the DL in round 1. I like the idea of Troy Franklin in the slot, and Pearsall (Slick Rick) on the outside. I tripled up at CB so that at least 1 hits, I'm betting on Melton. Overall, it was a quick turn around. I anticipate some sacks with this squad. I’ve been having a little fun too with the mocks and this trade. I landed WR Odunze at #11, who I’m not yet convinced I like much less than MHJ. That set me up to go Edge Chop Robinson at #23, my choice of CB Wiggins or Kool-Aid with #27, DT Leonard Taylor at #35, G Beebe at #66, DT Fisk at #71, and LB Colton at #90. I took freakish 6’-6”, 231 lb, 4.5 40 yard dash Johnny Wilson with pick #104. And then the Vikings 1st rounder next year as well? Not too shabby!Shabby Sheik! ^^^That's the winning 2024 Draft class for ARZ!^^^
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Post by Vesely22 on Mar 16, 2024 13:56:14 GMT -7
I say pass on trading with the Vikings at 11. If we aren't getting Jefferson, it is not worth it. I believe we need to walk away with a WR#1 in this draft. I will cheerish the last #1 we had for all of those years! Time for me to move onto the next one.
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Post by cardinalsins on Mar 16, 2024 14:00:12 GMT -7
Florida, Are you talking about the QB that Purdy replaced? How did that turn out? Right, in hindsight we can say how it turned out but to get Trey Lance The 49ers had to assure themselves that they got him. Any pick can fail which that one did. Cardinalsins has a post below from Daniel Jeremiah Here is his quote which is what I am talking about "1.) He speculates the Vikings could have an assured landing spot with the Cardinals at 4."
To be sure you want McCarthy , you best pay up to get him. <FLCF
"you best pay up to get him"
Are we getting paid enough for that pick when Marvin is sitting there waiting for us to draft him?
So, if we trade with the Vikings, we end up with #11 pick and #23 pick and #27 picks. By #11 pick, Marvin, Odunze and Nabers will be likely gone. Let us say Marvin is a generational talent. We have this ranking on WR's.
1. Marvin Harrison Jr. (Generational WR) 2. Odunze/Nabers (Elite WR which both are projected to be selected by pick #9) 3. All other projected first round WR's (Not the caliber of the 3 above)
So, my question is who are we taking for a WR to become our #1 WR? At pick #11, we have to go with a later 1rst round projected or 2nd round projected WR to become our #1 WR. Can we find that second round WR? Kirk and Bolden were the closest to that, but Bolden was #2 behind Fitzgerald and Kirk was #2 behind Hopkins. Could any of the WR's projected in the first round after the 11th pick or later be better than a Boldin or Kirk? Would Boldin or Kirk been good enough to be our #1 WR? We gave a 1rst round pick for Hollywood. Though that should have been a second round pick, either way he was drafted in the first round with the 25th overall pick. As it turned out, he was not a true #1 WR. We could probably find Hollywoods replacement with either the 11th, 23rd or 27th pick. But would that WR be a true #1 WR? The other thing to keep in mind is that would we use any of our 3 first round picks on a WR or would we go Oline, CB or Pass Rusher? Hmm...food for thought.
My opinion on the point system you mentioned is this...it is flawed! Why? Because of this:
The points for the #4 pick are 1800 points from what you mentioned. Do those points account for the caliber of the player? Here are those picks for the past 10 drafts.
#4 Picks in the past 10 drafts:
Anthony Richardson-2023 Sauce Gardner-2022 Kyle Pitts-2021 Andrew Thomas-2020 Clelin Ferrell-2019 Denzel Ward-2018 Leonard Fournette-2017 Ezekiel Elliot-2016 Amari Cooper-2015 Sammy Watkins-2014
Does the point system account for the player? Would you rather have Sauce Gardner or Kyle Pitts? Would you rather have Leonard Fournette or Ezekiel Elliot? Would you rather have Amari Cooper or Sammy Watkins? Assigning 1800 points to the #4 pick does not reflect the true value of the pick, that is determined by the player selected. Are you following me?
Now, let's look at the #11 picks in the past 10 drafts:
Peter Skoronski-2023 Chris Olave-2022 Justin Fields-2021 Mekhi Becton-2020 Jonah Williams-2019 Minkah Fitzpatrick-2018 Marshon Lattimore-2017 Vernon Hargreaves III-2016 Trae Waynes-2015 Taylor Lewan-2014
I see 3 very good players above...Olave, Fitzpatrick and Lattimore. 3 out of 10 are not very good odds at getting a great player with the #11 pick much less a generational player.
If we make the trade to #11 pick, who is Murray going to throw the ball to? McBride? Wilson? Dortch? A rookie(not an elite rookie)? We would have to be very lucky to land an excellent WR in the late first round or second round. If we can't do that, then McBride would be our number one receiver if we use our stats from last season. None of our WR's/TE's broke 1000 receiving yards.
So Florida, I can't agree with you that the point system has any degree of the worth of the #4 pick in the draft. They are just numbers and do not take the hidden factors into consideration.
Your rebuttal?
Who in this class can be a AJ Brown pick for us...or a WR1 taken in the 2nd round? I like all 3 for different reasons. The first two are taller than 6'.
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Post by CardsFanQC on Mar 16, 2024 16:07:36 GMT -7
I've been thinking and a trade with Vikings, another alternative for using these picks could be: - #11 - Byron Murphy Jr. DT - Texas (I don't think Byron will make it to #23)
- #23 - Quinyon Mitchell CB - Toledo
- #27 - Trade this pick along with Budda Baker to the Bengals for Tee Higgins (while I think Brian Thomas and Xavier Leggette might be good pros - I like the sure thing with Tee Higgins.
- #35 - Some "smoke" is that Latu will slide around bottom of 1st or top of 2nd round) - Latu UCLA Edge
Note if Cardinals are worried about Latu's medicals, then go get Darius Robinson DL/Edge Missouri.
After trading Budda and his salary cap #, go get Justin Simmons Safety (former Bronco) for 3 yrs. $35M - $38M.
Hard pass you can do better Minnesota is desperate JJ involved or no deal I know that is not likely but they have a lot of mouths to feed and no Qb. Whoever deals with Minnesota have the advantage on them. Maybe I am being misunderstood -- MN trades #11, #23 and 2025 1st rounder for #4. You have the 2025 1st rounder to again have (2) 1st rounders in next years draft for either a pick or to use the MN #1 in 2025 to trade for productive player at need position next year.
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Post by FLCardinalFan on Mar 16, 2024 17:40:27 GMT -7
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Post by cardinalsins on Mar 16, 2024 17:48:02 GMT -7
Could the Cards get - AND also pick up an "extra" 2025 1st rounder or 2nd rounder in the trade ? #11 - Dallas Turner, Edge Alabama #23 - Byron Murphy JR, DT - Texas #27 - Terrion Arnold CB - Alabama or Nate Wiggins CB - Clemson #35 - Brian Thomas Jr. WR - LSU I've been thinking and a trade with Vikings, another alternative for using these picks could be: - #11 - Byron Murphy Jr. DT - Texas (I don't think Byron will make it to #23)
- #23 - Quinyon Mitchell CB - Toledo
- #27 - Trade this pick along with Budda Baker to the Bengals for Tee Higgins (while I think Brian Thomas and Xavier Leggette might be good pros - I like the sure thing with Tee Higgins.
- #35 - Some "smoke" is that Latu will slide around bottom of 1st or top of 2nd round) - Latu UCLA Edge
Note if Cardinals are worried about Latu's medicals, then go get Darius Robinson DL/Edge Missouri.
After trading Budda and his salary cap #, go get Justin Simmons Safety (former Bronco) for 3 yrs. $35M - $38M.
Higgins is not a sure thing in that he's missed some time recently. It's also not a good decision $$-wise. Why pay 20+ a year when th entire contract for the 27th pick is less than 15 million? I would not trade a first for him. Especially with this class.
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Post by FLCardinalFan on Mar 16, 2024 18:28:08 GMT -7
Peter Skoronski-2023 Chris Olave-2022 Justin Fields-2021 Mekhi Becton-2020 Jonah Williams-2019 Minkah Fitzpatrick-2018 Marshon Lattimore-2017 Vernon Hargreaves III-2016 Trae Waynes-2015 Taylor Lewan-2014 Hey flash Your thinking is leaking #12 6 really good players last 10 years Several Pro Bowlers 1 pick below yours. I'll play your secnarios #12 Overall last 10 years 2023 Jahmyr Gibbs RB Lions < good player only a rookie Check his stats on my other thread
2022 Jameson Williams WR Lions Not so good yet 2021 Micah Parsons LB Cowboys Outstanding2020 Henry Ruggs WR Raiders Sad ending 2019 Rashan Gary LB Packers "One of their top players" < devongent was right again2018 Vita Vea NT Buccaneers Pro Bowler Played in the Super Bowl 2017 DeShaun Watson QB Cleveland 3 X Pro Bowler2016 Sheldon Rankins DT Saints He has had injuries but is still around 64.2 2015 Danny Shelton DT Cleveland So So career injury plagued 2014 Odell Beckham WR Giants HMMM Rookie of the Year 2014 3x Pro BowlerMike Evans was drafted ahead of Beckham at #7 overall Evans has a better career 11680 yds 94 Tds Beckham career 7,367 yds 57 TDs Sammy Watkins was drafted ahead of both Evans and Beckham
at GUESS WHERE You GOT # 4th overall
5384 yds 34 TDS
Here is my point
You cant look into the future Hindsight is not part of the equation on Draft Day. Tom Brady was not worth a 1st on his draft day But in his prime you probably could have had 4 1sts to get him in a trade.
The points do matter on trade day that is all Not in the future. The deals are made on value points and need and QB Premiums
By your reasoning we should skip the 11th overall and trade to the 12th. It doesn't work that way.
Love the dialog
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Post by cardinal225 on Mar 16, 2024 19:26:05 GMT -7
I say pass on trading with the Vikings at 11. If we aren't getting Jefferson, it is not worth it. I believe we need to walk away with a WR#1 in this draft. I will cheerish the last #1 we had for all of those years! Time for me to move onto the next one. exactly
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