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Post by FLCardinalFan on Apr 1, 2024 18:42:31 GMT -7
Here is why Monti Should take Harrison. If you truly and sincerely believe that Marvin Harrison is a generational talentthen that would put Harrison in the same class/category as Hall of Famer Larry Fitzgerald. If you are so certain then you don't pass him up. If your goal is to trade, Then it must be a lopsided deal to give up GENERATIONAL TALENT. That would include at #11th overall plus #23 and Next years #1 (Vikings example) at minimum.
Similarities to 2024 & 2004 are incredible
LooK at all the great QBs taken
Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Roethlisberger
Guys like DB Sean Taylor, Kellen Winslow TE , DB DeAngelo Hall No one has said WRS Rome Odunze, Malik Nabers, Brian Thomas are generational. So, lets take a look at the 2004 NFL Draft considered A TOP 5 0R 6 DRAFT OF ALL TIME A. It had the most trades up to that time 28 trades B. It had the most WRS go in the 1st Round 7
Results count the most
A 14 Pro Bowlers came out of that Draft
B. The first draft to have two QBs lead their teams to multiple Super Bowls QB Ben Roethlisberger Steelers QB Eli Manning Giants
C. One of the deepest drafts ever 3 Pro Bowlers in rounds 3-5
Jared Allen of the Vikings was taken in round 4 Awesome Edge Rusher Found in him. D. POSSIBLE HALL OF FAMERS Larry Fitzgerald, Ben Roethlisberger, Eli Manning and Vince Wolfork Bob Sanders, Philip Rivers ( yes 1 l ) & Jared Allen Now my research found the rest of the story not found elsewhere L arry Fitzgerald the generational talent was #3 overall
#3 WR Larry Fitzgerald Hall of Famer to be CAREER STATS
`17,492 yards, on 1432 receptions `121 TDS
#7 WR Roy Williams from Texas. He was a Pro Bowler. But not generational
Career stats
5715 yds on 292 receptions 44 TDS , All Good numbers
# 9 THE Next WR drafted Reggie Williams guess where he played college ballUniversity of Washington SAME AS ROME ODUNZE Here are his NFL Career Stats2322 yards on 189 receptions & 18 TDS < not generational is it?He was big 6 ft 4 214 lbs 4.5 40 yd dash He was a bust long term#13 WR Lee Evans Career Stats6008 yards 381 Receptions 44 TDS < Not bad for the 13th overall
But was not a pro bowler# 15 WR Michael Clayton Career stats2955 yds on 223 receptions 10 TDS#29 Michael Jenkins Ohio St. career stats
4427 yds 354 receptions 25 TDS < Decent good player
#31 Rashaun Woods WR Oklahoma St.
160 Yards 7 receptions 1 TD
2004 NFL DRAFT LINK
www.profootballnetwork.com/2004-nfl-draft-results-order-and-picks-for-round-1-7/
49ers draft 30th this year
ALL REASONS TO DRAFT MARVIN HARRISON @ #4TH OUR NUMBER 1
1. #3 turned out generational
2. Deep Draft
3. Lots of Trades
4. We have the picks to do really well
5. QB is not a priority UNLESS you are done with Murray.
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Post by Dry Heat on Apr 1, 2024 19:15:18 GMT -7
Interesting comparison to 2004! My question remains, what makes MHJ stand out as “generational”?
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Post by respecttheprocess on Apr 1, 2024 19:48:51 GMT -7
Excellent research and take on it FLCARDINALFAN! Here is some additional food for thought…last year…many on this board were upset that the Cardinals were winning a few extra games that inadvertently was hurting their chances of getting a top pick…maybe not a QB some wanted if we couldn’t rid ourselves of KM but definitely a player like Harrison…who many believed was the best player in the draft anyway. But…as fate would have it…the Texans were good last year…making the pick we got from them not a top 10 pick. And our Cardinals won (4) games…which many bemoaned took us out of the Harrison sweepstakes. But…as fate would have it again…the (3) teams ahead of us seem eager to draft QBs…allowing Harrison to fall to us at #4. But…what do we now have…draft gurus all over the place wanting to trade down…maybe even out of the top ten to collect extra picks…some this year…some next year…hell…some picks whenever…and now…these same pundits want to use private work outs…combine numbers…and college tape…to say that this guy…whom everybody last year…and I mean EVERYBODY…and some still say this year…was and is the best player in this year’s draft…and yes…looks to be a generational talent…to now question whether he is now even the best WR in this year’s draft!!! Ok. Ok. I’ll play along. Here is a pick you wanted…a pick you need…a pick your small QB with vision issues needs…a pick that you have cleared your WR room to make…a pick that no one will ever criticize you making…a pick that falls directly in your lap…and you now want to trade it away…with 11 picks and another #1 pick this year already in the fold…well…don’t get too cute here guys…you take the BPA on the board when you pick…and if it just so happens to fill a need…consider yourself damn lucky…and make the pick. Don’t overthink 🤔 it. Or better yet…don’t f@@k it up!!! 😉
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Post by Dry Heat on Apr 1, 2024 20:01:39 GMT -7
Here’s something to consider. Fitz wasn’t considered the top receiver in that draft by most teams. We took him before Roy Williams because of Green’s connection to his family in Minn and being around him as a young ball boy for the Vikings. There was an interesting article a few years back about Fitz being a generational talent, and some great stuff by NFL analyst Rick Gosselin. In it he says of 23 NFL teams he surveyed in the 2004 draft, 15 had Roy Williams as the top WR, and 8 had Fitz. www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/draft_review_larry_fitzgerald_a_generational_talent/s1_16688_35327615I think Odunze is more like Fitz coming out of college. Nabers could easily be the best whole package WR. Roy Williams was an athletic freak. An inch shorter than MHJ but 10 lbs heavier yet ran a 4.37. He was a track star in 100 m, high jump and long jump. MHJ is a bit slim compared to Williams or Fitz coming out of college. Odunze is the same height and weight as Fitz, and has those hands. His 50/50 jump ball catch rate is super-human. Ondunze ran faster than Fitz, had a faster 3 cone drill, a longer broad jump, and higher vertical jump. Most importantly, he is a “dawg”. Hungry to be the best. I wish we had combine numbers on MHJ but he (his dad) chose to play it safe. I think all three of these guys could be Pro Bowlers and don’t give any one of them a better shot at it. I think if MHJ and Odunze ran a route together and had to fight over the catch, Odunze would win 60% of the time.
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Post by respecttheprocess on Apr 1, 2024 20:28:26 GMT -7
Here’s something to consider. Fitz wasn’t considered the top receiver in that draft by most teams. We took him before Roy Williams because of Green’s connection to his family in Minn and being around him as a young ball boy for the Vikings. There was an interesting article a few years back about Fitz being a generational talent, and some great stuff by NFL analyst Rick Gosselin. In it he says of 23 NFL teams he surveyed in the 2004 draft, 15 had Roy Williams as the top WR, and 8 had Fitz. www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/draft_review_larry_fitzgerald_a_generational_talent/s1_16688_35327615I think Odunze is more like Fitz coming out of college. Nabers could easily be the best whole package WR. Roy Williams was an athletic freak. An inch shorter than MHJ but 10 lbs heavier yet ran a 4.37. He was a track star in 100 m, high jump and long jump. MHJ is a bit slim compared to Williams or Fitz coming out of college. Odunze is the same height and weight as Fitz, and has those hands. His 50/50 jump ball catch rate is super-human. Ondunze ran faster than Fitz, had a faster 3 cone drill, a longer broad jump, and higher vertical jump. Most importantly, he is a “dawg”. Hungry to be the best. I wish we had combine numbers on MHJ but he (his dad) chose to play it safe. I think all three of these guys could be Pro Bowlers and don’t give any one of them a better shot at it. I think if MHJ and Odunze ran a route together and had to fight over the catch, Odunze would win 60% of the time. Dry Heat…I’m not going to argue with your analysis…cause you watch more college ball then me…my point only was…by anyone’s analysis…MHJ was the best player coming out of this year’s draft for well over a year…and as far as I can tell…the only thing that has brought that thought into question is his decision not to put up combine numbers against his would-be “competitors”. But…for all practical purposes…he has done nothing to take him off that pedestal…except lose his star college QB to the NFL. If you feel Odunze is better then him…and is your BPA at #4…you take him just as you would Harrison…I’m just saying…you don’t trade out of a BPA that just so happens to fill a need…a desperate need your QB and this team lacks…and that you can’t risk not being there at pick #11 or later. Use the pick…I say Harrison…you say Odunze…only their full careers will truly determine if either is “generational”. But few will ever criticize you taking Harrison with the pick. Odunze…I’m not so sure.
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Post by jeffcardinalfan on Apr 2, 2024 4:41:45 GMT -7
Larry was brought up these are my thoughts about that deal. Denny green believed in Larry 100% and it was because he had been around that young man for years. He'd already seen Larry's work ethic and commitment to improving his game and had a really good idea of whether or not Larry would be one of those guys who would go nuts and spend money and get in trouble. I'm bringing that up because to me at least it reinforces my belief that team should spend way more time and resources on finding out the character of these prospective draftees. Of course game tape is still the most important evaluation tool but just think if we had a way to figure out the person's personality and what was really in their brains as well as the film assessment.
And I'm just going to throw this out here. I don't recall exactly which year it was we'll remember the year that the Cardinals traded for Rob Moore and drafted Frank Sanders? Trade for Justin Jefferson and draft Brian Thomas? Just saying...
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Post by FLCardinalFan on Apr 2, 2024 4:43:10 GMT -7
Interesting comparison to 2004! My question remains, what makes MHJ stand out as “generational”? I don't have an answer to that. My premise is based on that if Monti thinks he is truly "that player" then he must draft him. Or trade him for more than what you would normally get in a trade at least 3 1sts. minimum The history of the draft reflects that. I just used 2004 as an example. For the fans of Rome Odunze they cannot base their drafting of him based on how WR Reggie Williams turned out. He was from the same school as Odunze and had the size too. He did not make it. He went high too even close to where we would pick him if we traded down.
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Post by CardsFanQC on Apr 2, 2024 5:49:58 GMT -7
Here is an article where the Cowboys Gil Brandt ADMITS in 2004, the Cowboys had Roy Williams WR Texas as a Round #2 pick UNTIL his Pro Day and he ran a 4.37-4.40 40 yd dash time. This is classic whereby a player on film shows he is a top 50 pick and just because he can run a straight line at 6'4" sub 4.4 40 ... he moves up to #7 overall !!! Gil Brandt discussing importance of Pro Days including Cowboys selection of WR Roy Williams
Why is MHJ generational ?? - He still put up #'s though the OSU QB play in 2023 was poor especially when compared to LSU/Washington
- Genetics - father is a HOF WR route runner who has taught his son about being a WR in the NFL but MHJ is blessed with a wingspan almost a foot larger than father.
- PJJ says MHJ is the hardest worker of any player at OSU including WR Pro Bowler Garrett Wilson of the Jets.
- PJJ says allegedly MHJ is sneaky strong and can squat 500 lbs.
- My #1 reason - with my own eyes, Ohio State and MHJ in 2022 was DOMINATING supposedly a "generational" defense in the Georgia Bulldogs UNTIL MHJ went out of game with a concussion. The OSU offense noticeably had more trouble moving the football without MHJ on the field allowing Georgia to win a close Championship game. This is the game which should have told scouts CJ Stroud was the #1 QB in 2023 and that MHJ is the #1 WR whether it is 2023 or 2024 draft.
As a followup on MHJ -- can Monti and the Cardinal coaches verify this from the OSU coaching staff - MHJ is an Athletic Freak
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Post by flash on Apr 2, 2024 7:20:51 GMT -7
Interesting comparison to 2004! My question remains, what makes MHJ stand out as “generational”? Let me ask you this D.H...Do you think Caleb is Generational? If you think he is not, then why is he slated to be the #1 overall pick with Jayden Daniels and Drake Maye right behind him? I have yet to see that either of the other two QB's will get drafted before him. Why is that? For the same reason why Marvin is projected to be the first WR off the board.
I guess all the people that have Caleb going as the first QB and Marvin going as the first WR in their mocks, have their own reasons...can all of them be wrong? For those people who have us trading down in their mocks they post, there are a lot less of them. Why is that?
The difference between Caleb and Drake Maye/Jayden Daniels is the same difference between Marvin and Odunze/Nabers. Why is Caleb projected to be the first QB off the board? Daniels had better stats than Caleb in 2023. But yet Caleb more than likely will go first overall. Does that have anything to do with "generational"?
If you believe Caleb is generational, what makes him stand out as that? Whatever it is, it is not stats from 2023. Compare these stats:
Perhaps "generational" is not part of the equation after all? There has to be other reasons why Caleb and Marvin are projected as the first QB and WR to be taken in the draft. If I had the answer to that, I would post it...but I don't.
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Post by End Zone on Apr 2, 2024 9:17:07 GMT -7
Excellent research and take on it FLCARDINALFAN! Here is some additional food for thought…last year…many on this board were upset that the Cardinals were winning a few extra games that inadvertently was hurting their chances of getting a top pick…maybe not a QB some wanted if we couldn’t rid ourselves of KM but definitely a player like Harrison…who many believed was the best player in the draft anyway. But…as fate would have it…the Texans were good last year…making the pick we got from them not a top 10 pick. And our Cardinals won (4) games…which many bemoaned took us out of the Harrison sweepstakes. But…as fate would have it again…the (3) teams ahead of us seem eager to draft QBs…allowing Harrison to fall to us at #4. But…what do we now have…draft gurus all over the place wanting to trade down…maybe even out of the top ten to collect extra picks…some this year…some next year…hell…some picks whenever…and now…these same pundits want to use private work outs…combine numbers…and college tape…to say that this guy…whom everybody last year…and I mean EVERYBODY…and some still say this year…was and is the best player in this year’s draft…and yes…looks to be a generational talent…to now question whether he is now even the best WR in this year’s draft!!! Ok. Ok. I’ll play along. Here is a pick you wanted…a pick you need…a pick your small QB with vision issues needs…a pick that you have cleared your WR room to make…a pick that no one will ever criticize you making…a pick that falls directly in your lap…and you now want to trade it away…with 11 picks and another #1 pick this year already in the fold…well… don’t get too cute here guys…you take the BPA on the board when you pick…and if it just so happens to fill a need…consider yourself damn lucky…and make the pick. Don’t overthink 🤔 it. Or better yet…don’t f@@k it up!!! 😉 Taking the BPA in the 1st Round works almost every time. The exception is QB, IMV. When the BPA is a QB, trading the pick has to be a luxury move, one that few GMs can make, and only if the team already has their Pro-Bowl, All-Pro, or HOFer QB. I reserve judgment on QB Murray being Pro-Bowl again. He's now in the sweet spot age- and career-wise. He's not yet qualified for the 2 prestigious awards. I think Monti will do okay at the Draft whether he moves down from #4 or uses it to take the BPA.
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Post by Dry Heat on Apr 2, 2024 11:04:02 GMT -7
Interesting comparison to 2004! My question remains, what makes MHJ stand out as “generational”? Let me ask you this D.H...Do you think Caleb is Generational? If you think he is not, then why is he slated to be the #1 overall pick with Jayden Daniels and Drake Maye right behind him? I have yet to see that either of the other two QB's will get drafted before him. Why is that? For the same reason why Marvin is projected to be the first WR off the board.
I guess all the people that have Caleb going as the first QB and Marvin going as the first WR in their mocks, have their own reasons...can all of them be wrong? For those people who have us trading down in their mocks they post, there are a lot less of them. Why is that?
The difference between Caleb and Drake Maye/Jayden Daniels is the same difference between Marvin and Odunze/Nabers. Why is Caleb projected to be the first QB off the board? Daniels had better stats than Caleb in 2023. But yet Caleb more than likely will go first overall. Does that have anything to do with "generational"?
If you believe Caleb is generational, what makes him stand out as that? Whatever it is, it is not stats from 2023. Compare these stats:
Perhaps "generational" is not part of the equation after all? There has to be other reasons why Caleb and Marvin are projected as the first QB and WR to be taken in the draft. If I had the answer to that, I would post it...but I don't. I don’t think any of the QB’s are what I would call “generational”.
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Post by Vesely22 on Apr 2, 2024 18:00:39 GMT -7
I am going to agree with Dry Heat on this one! Caleb appears to have the physical tools but something about the way he followed Lincoln Riley to USC and really didn’t have a great season. Plus the way their record didn’t scream generational to me and something about the crying to his mom. Daniel’s… I saw him for 3 years at ASU and he showed promise that didn’t materialize until you gave him 2 very good receivers. Drake may turn out to be the best pure QB and reminds me of Josh Allen.
Give me Harrison and call it a day! Why take the chance of trying to fill your need at WR if you have what experts have said for the last two years… Harrison is the best player!.
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Post by Dry Heat on Apr 2, 2024 19:39:51 GMT -7
I am going to agree with Dry Heat on this one! Caleb appears to have the physical tools but something about the way he followed Lincoln Riley to USC and really didn’t have a great season. Plus the way their record didn’t scream generational to me and something about the crying to his mom. Daniel’s… I saw him for 3 years at ASU and he showed promise that didn’t materialize until you gave him 2 very good receivers. Drake may turn out to be the best pure QB and reminds me of Josh Allen. Give me Harrison and call it a day! Why take the chance of trying to fill your need at WR if you have what experts have said for the last two years… Harrison is the best player!. None of the WR’s look like what I’d call generational either. Take the aforementioned Roy Williams, for example. Bigger and faster than MJH. Despite some injuries in college that forced him to miss some games, and being on a team with two other fantastic WR’s, he set records in college for receptions (393), yards (5,715), and receiving TD’s (44). Against great competition/defenses. Compare to MHJ’s receptions (155), yards (2,613) and TD’s (31). Compare to Nabers receptions (189), yards (3,004) and TD’s (21). Compare to Odunze receptions (214), yards (3,282) and TD’s (24). Roy Williams looked “generational” to college football fans and NFL draftniks. These top three look very good, just like others at the top every single year. No one in this draft looks “generational” to me coming out this year. Exception might be Bowers. Edit: I thought it would be good to post Fitz’s college stats as well…as just a Freshman and Sophomore. He entered the NFL before his jr year. Receptions (161), yards (2,677) and TD’s (34). That’s right, more of everything than MHJ in just two years, ages 18-19. To compare apples to apples, MHJ had receptions (88), yards (1,402) and TDs (17). So Fitz did twice what MHJ accomplished in their first two years. The “generational” talk is what sports media does every year with a few guys. This draft doesn’t look like it has any once in a generation talents. It does look to be very deep in very good players through the first three rounds, especially at WR and Tackle and solid at QB as well. I personally think sports media pushed Williams, Maye and MHJ to expectations beyond what they truly are.
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Post by FLCardinalFan on Apr 2, 2024 19:54:28 GMT -7
I am going to agree with Dry Heat on this one! Caleb appears to have the physical tools but something about the way he followed Lincoln Riley to USC and really didn’t have a great season. Plus the way their record didn’t scream generational to me and something about the crying to his mom. Daniel’s… I saw him for 3 years at ASU and he showed promise that didn’t materialize until you gave him 2 very good receivers. Drake may turn out to be the best pure QB and reminds me of Josh Allen. Give me Harrison and call it a day! Why take the chance of trying to fill your need at WR if you have what experts have said for the last two years… Harrison is the best player!. Hi Good to see you on. I agree, I did a thread a few months back about how under Kliff Kingsbury Caleb Williams performance went down. It is back awhile. I'm thinking like you Don't try to get cute. Take who analysts say is the best player in the draft. The trade offer would have to be ridiculous for me #11, 23, 2025 # 1st rd pick and I want another pick this year I want one of their 4ths too 108 or 129.
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Post by Dry Heat on Apr 2, 2024 19:56:44 GMT -7
I am going to agree with Dry Heat on this one! Caleb appears to have the physical tools but something about the way he followed Lincoln Riley to USC and really didn’t have a great season. Plus the way their record didn’t scream generational to me and something about the crying to his mom. Daniel’s… I saw him for 3 years at ASU and he showed promise that didn’t materialize until you gave him 2 very good receivers. Drake may turn out to be the best pure QB and reminds me of Josh Allen. Give me Harrison and call it a day! Why take the chance of trying to fill your need at WR if you have what experts have said for the last two years… Harrison is the best player!. Hi Good to see you on. I agree, I did a thread a few months back about how under Kliff Kingsbury Caleb Williams performance went down. It is back awhile. I'm thinking like you Don't try to get cute. Take who analysts say is the best player in the draft. The trade offer would have to be ridiculous for me #11, 23, 2025 # 1st rd pick and I want another pick this year I want one of their 4ths too 108 or 129.I would jump on that offer, but do want one of the top three WR’s, so it would be a bummer if we couldn’t find a trade partner to move up a bit and land one.
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