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Post by aris on Sept 24, 2018 11:34:59 GMT -7
Who's better?
I got Steve by a hair. Just a very fine hair. Because he's created this disaster.
5 years in now Steve. When he took over he said it was a big mess to clean up with bad contracts etc.
5 years later we are in WORSE shape then we were with Rod Graves at any given time.
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Post by aris on Sept 24, 2018 11:35:42 GMT -7
Does anyone want to bring back the "top 5 GM" thread for STeve Keim?
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Post by TDACKTAL on Sept 24, 2018 12:01:13 GMT -7
Graves drafted better and had a little less success in FA IMO. We had some really good core players tho. Bolden, Fitz, Dockett, Campbell, Wilson, Warner, Dansby, PP21 just to name a few.
Who would you say is a good core player that Keim got? DJ... Yep, that's it... DJ Everyone else left over has question marks or is gone.
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Post by One_Heartbeat on Sept 24, 2018 12:22:07 GMT -7
Does anyone want to bring back the "top 5 GM" thread for STeve Keim? If that doesn't work we revert to "yeah Graves was the boss but Keim was doing all of the work." Keim's been dead to me since the DUI and should have been gone then. I refuse to believe that , selfish act didn't create distractions or otherwise hurt this team that had zero margin for error. Graves was hapless but he at least didn't create any off-the-clock headlines. I think the Cardinals were competing against themselves when they hired Keim to replace Graves.
I believe Keim said recently he's been out doin' some scoutin' n' such. OK then, time to do it full time somewhere else.
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Post by Zaz on Sept 24, 2018 12:53:56 GMT -7
Graves
What do GMs do? really at the core what is their single most important job ----> the draft
Graves was a better drafter thus he was a better GM
better answer both are garbage
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Post by One_Heartbeat on Sept 24, 2018 13:11:55 GMT -7
Graves What do GMs do? really at the core what is their single most important job ----> the draft Graves was a better drafter thus he was a better GM better answer both are garbage I think the relative success of any GM is how strong the HC is, how much input the HC has and how strong the GM is to either swallow his ego and get the guy the HC wants or push back on the HC to draft the guy the GM is certain is best. It's a push/pull relationship. Example back to Graves, with all-around good guy and players coach McGinnis he trades out of the Suggs spot and takes two nobodies. On to Denny Green we end up with Fitzgerald, Dansby, Dockett, I'm sure I'm leaving some out. I doubt Fitzgerald, Dansby and Dockett are all here without Denny Green. I always wondered what kind of GM Denny would have been.
As for Keim, he's done a good job selling at least some of his screw ups as an opportunity to "churn the roster" and grab guys off the street and to sign vets to one year deals to make up for the glaring lack of depth.
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Post by 1988card on Sept 24, 2018 14:02:47 GMT -7
Graves drafted better and had a little less success in FA IMO. We had some really good core players tho. Bolden, Fitz, Dockett, Campbell, Wilson, Warner, Dansby, PP21 just to name a few. Who would you say is a good core player that Keim got? DJ... Yep, that's it... DJ Everyone else left over has question marks or is gone. Most of those guys listed were more Denny Green than Graves. Green pushed for Fitz , Dockett and Dansby. I'm pretty sure he was on Q too. To be fair, in addition to DJ, Keim also got Badger who was a core player prior to injury. DJ Humphries is a core guy. Deone was a core guy until the new coach apparently found out he sucks. MArkus Golden? Nkemdiche is starting to show things. Rosen and Kirk look promising. He traded a 2nd for Jones. Get credit of some sort for that? His draft history is not nearly as poor as some here make it.
The jury is out on Keim and won't be back in for a while until some of these guys mature in their careers.
Given that he's almost equalled Rod in about half the tenure, plus killed him in FA, Keim wins easy (not that beating Graves is a big deal).
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Post by One_Heartbeat on Sept 24, 2018 14:07:49 GMT -7
Graves drafted better and had a little less success in FA IMO. We had some really good core players tho. Bolden, Fitz, Dockett, Campbell, Wilson, Warner, Dansby, PP21 just to name a few. Who would you say is a good core player that Keim got? DJ... Yep, that's it... DJ Everyone else left over has question marks or is gone. Most of those guys listed were more Denny Green than Graves. Green pushed for Fitz , Dockett and Dansby. I'm pretty sure he was on Q too. To be fair, in addition to DJ, Keim also got Badger who was a core player prior to injury. DJ Humphries is a core guy. Deone was a core guy until the new coach apparently found out he sucks. Nkemdiche is starting to show things. Rosen and Kirk look promising. The jury is out on Keim and won't be back in for a while until some of these guys mature in their careers.
Given that he's almost equalled Rod in about half the tenure, plus killed him in FA, Keim wins easy (not that beating Graves is a big deal).Boldin came in 2003, the year before Denny. Almost certainly Graves' best pick. One thing to keep in mind is that Keim never had to play GM during the years of "woe is us, we need a new stadium!" Also Keim never had to play GM working directly for the old man.
Disclaimer: None of the above should be construed, in whole or in part, as an endorsement of Graves.
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Post by End Zone on Sept 24, 2018 14:20:48 GMT -7
Most of those guys listed were more Denny Green than Graves. Green pushed for Fitz , Dockett and Dansby. I'm pretty sure he was on Q too. To be fair, in addition to DJ, Keim also got Badger who was a core player prior to injury. DJ Humphries is a core guy. Deone was a core guy until the new coach apparently found out he sucks. Nkemdiche is starting to show things. Rosen and Kirk look promising. The jury is out on Keim and won't be back in for a while until some of these guys mature in their careers.
Given that he's almost equalled Rod in about half the tenure, plus killed him in FA, Keim wins easy (not that beating Graves is a big deal).Boldin came in 2003, the year before Denny. Almost certainly Graves' best pick. One thing to keep in mind is that Keim never had to play GM during the years of "woe is us, we need a new stadium!" Also Keim never had to play GM working directly for the old man.
Disclaimer: None of the above should be construed, in whole or in part, as an endorsement of Graves.
I like your disclaimer lines. You're back to the old self, man!
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Post by 1988card on Sept 24, 2018 14:25:40 GMT -7
Most of those guys listed were more Denny Green than Graves. Green pushed for Fitz , Dockett and Dansby. I'm pretty sure he was on Q too. To be fair, in addition to DJ, Keim also got Badger who was a core player prior to injury. DJ Humphries is a core guy. Deone was a core guy until the new coach apparently found out he sucks. Nkemdiche is starting to show things. Rosen and Kirk look promising. The jury is out on Keim and won't be back in for a while until some of these guys mature in their careers.
Given that he's almost equalled Rod in about half the tenure, plus killed him in FA, Keim wins easy (not that beating Graves is a big deal).Boldin came in 2003, the year before Denny. Almost certainly Graves' best pick. One thing to keep in mind is that Keim never had to play GM during the years of "woe is us, we need a new stadium!" Also Keim never had to play GM working directly for the old man.
Disclaimer: None of the above should be construed, in whole or in part, as an endorsement of Graves.
Fair enough on Boldin. That was a great pick. However, it was the same draft that they passed on Suggs, so hard to give anything but a neutral grade on that one. Had Graves drafted Suggs AND Boldin, which he could've done, then he's got a home run. Think about this, he drafted Bryant Johnson BEFORE Q so his evaluation of Q had him below BJ. Hard to credit him. Seems more luck than good there.
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Post by Zaz on Sept 24, 2018 15:44:04 GMT -7
Graves What do GMs do? really at the core what is their single most important job ----> the draft Graves was a better drafter thus he was a better GM better answer both are garbage I think the relative success of any GM is how strong the HC is, how much input the HC has and how strong the GM is to either swallow his ego and get the guy the HC wants or push back on the HC to draft the guy the GM is certain is best. It's a push/pull relationship. Example back to Graves, with all-around good guy and players coach McGinnis he trades out of the Suggs spot and takes two nobodies. On to Denny Green we end up with Fitzgerald, Dansby, Dockett, I'm sure I'm leaving some out. I doubt Fitzgerald, Dansby and Dockett are all here without Denny Green. I always wondered what kind of GM Denny would have been.
As for Keim, he's done a good job selling at least some of his screw ups as an opportunity to "churn the roster" and grab guys off the street and to sign vets to one year deals to make up for the glaring lack of depth.
They are both trash. But Graves has better draft picks and Graves took us to the superbowl. Thats pretty much a KO punch to Keim.
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Post by itancanwa on Sept 24, 2018 17:17:42 GMT -7
I think everyone is forgetting one thing about Graves. He handed out some awful contracts. Far as I'm concerned SK is a better GM than Graves. Neither one are really that good.
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Post by aris on Sept 24, 2018 17:23:14 GMT -7
drafting Levy Brown over AP was franchise changing.
Overpaying Fitz was ridiculous. They basically just told him to sign a blank check.
FA signings were a joke.
Keim is starting to approach Graves though the last couple of years. especially with drafting.
Fair point though was any team by Rod Graves ever as bad as this one?
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Post by Zaz on Sept 24, 2018 18:44:44 GMT -7
drafting Levy Brown over AP was franchise changing. Overpaying Fitz was ridiculous. They basically just told him to sign a blank check. FA signings were a joke. Keim is starting to approach Graves though the last couple of years. especially with drafting. Fair point though was any team by Rod Graves ever as bad as this one? Graves worst team was 3-13 in 2000 *However, I think its very fair to note that this team has far better talent than that team...which makes our losing even more pathetic and indefensible. So the answer is no, this is the worst AZ team ever.
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Post by One_Heartbeat on Sept 24, 2018 19:25:21 GMT -7
Boldin came in 2003, the year before Denny. Almost certainly Graves' best pick. One thing to keep in mind is that Keim never had to play GM during the years of "woe is us, we need a new stadium!" Also Keim never had to play GM working directly for the old man.
Disclaimer: None of the above should be construed, in whole or in part, as an endorsement of Graves.
Fair enough on Boldin. That was a great pick. However, it was the same draft that they passed on Suggs, so hard to give anything but a neutral grade on that one. Had Graves drafted Suggs AND Boldin, which he could've done, then he's got a home run. Think about this, he drafted Bryant Johnson BEFORE Q so his evaluation of Q had him below BJ. Hard to credit him. Seems more luck than good there. Now that's a great point. The only possible defense of Graves there is Boldin's injury history heading into that draft. If I recall correctly without the injuries at Florida State Boldin was a high first rounder.
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