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Post by respecttheprocess on Apr 6, 2024 11:57:53 GMT -7
Look, no QB has it all. The GOAT and Manning couldn’t run worth squat. Kyler is the best QB we’ve had since the Warner unexpected blessing, who was supposed to be a backup for Leinart. He’s better than Jake the Snake and Palmer. First five years for Palmer: 15,100 yards passing, 64% completion rate, avg 7.3 yards/attempt, 109 TDs, 67 INTs, 108 sacks, 163 rush yard. First five years for Kyler: 15,647 yards passing, 66.6% completion rate, avg 7 yards/attempt, 120 TDs, 46 INTs, 149 sacks, 2,448 rush yards (at 5.8 yards/attpt!) It’s not even close. Murray’s only weakness vs Palmer is sacks, but that’s more than made up for in TD:INT ratio and rushing ability. BTW…Warner first five years? 14,000 passing yards, 66.6% completion rate, avg 8.1 yards/attpt, 103 TDs, 64 INTs, 108 sacks, 202 rushing yards. Super similar to Palmer’s first five. Be patient with our now only 26 yr old QB. Get him two more receiving weapons including a legit WR1. Upgrade the Oline’s pass protection without sacrificing the run blocking they achieved once Kyler returned, especially when he became more adept under center. The offense will be more than fine. OUR DEFENSE IS OUR ISSUE!!! I’m not at all sold that he’s better then Palmer. Palmer won a division title…a playoff game…played in an NFC Championship game…and if not injured by the Rams when the team was 9-1…would have arguably won another division title…definitely would have guided the team to another playoff appearance…and had also guided the Bengals…who had not made the playoffs in awhile…to the playoffs. The statistics are similar…but there is much more to playing QB then statistics. The eye test. Palmer was much better from the pocket then KM has shown to date. KM was and is obviously a much better runner then Palmer could ever have hoped to be. However, the only playoff game we saw KM play was arguably the worst playoff game we have ever seen a highly touted QB play in a very long time. The knock on Palmer was…he too could not win in the playoffs (1-3) life-time and that he got happy feet in the pocket when playoff defenses honed in on him. The knock on KM is he can’t win from the pocket as well when defenses hone in on him and keep him in the pocket with a cover (2) defense and force him to beat you from the pocket. So…time will tell…but the tape and the eye test are out there. However, statistics aside (which you point out are fairly close)…what Palmer accomplished…a Division Title…Perhaps Two Division Titles in the making before injury…an NFC Championship appearance…A Playoff Win…and (4) career playoff appearances…(3) with non-perennial playoff teams…does not place him second fiddle to KM…not at all…not yet…IMO. Because QB’s are judged by more then statistics. You got to win…win division titles, win playoff games and ultimately win Championships. Palmer has at least done a little more then KM in those areas…IMO…For the best Cardinal QBs…it’s Warner…Palmer…Hart…when you take those categories into account…with other good ones being Lomax…Jake…and KM.
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Post by Redbirdfan62 on Apr 6, 2024 12:48:24 GMT -7
I’m still scratching my head about that Bills decision. Barely got anything and took that cap hit. Must have been a locker room cancer. Competition is a very fair point. That and QB play are the two things that make me wonder even as I’ve been pushing Odunze. Or considering Nabers/Thomas. With Odunze vs Nabers, you have Pac12 vs SEC. Not fair. But then you have variables like Odunze putting up those kind of completion and 50/50 stats in lots of bad weather. Very impressive. It’s going to come down to the tape and the meetings with teams and full background checks that us armchair GM’s do not get to see. The Cardinals are deep diving every minute of tape for all top three WR’s and talking to previous coaches and folks who have been around them. They know more than we do. Then it comes down to opinion and fit. I for one am not impressed by Nabers’ interviews…he just rubs me the wrong way as lots of guys from LSU seem to do. MHJ impresses me as quiet and respectful and all business, but I don’t trust the lack of personality. Watching Odunze speak and reading about him as a person excites me. With all three being net equal athletically on the field, I’m leaning hard on vibes. They have been having issues with him but they are gonna trade up in my opinion and come after a Wr not only that they could not beat the chiefs and they put it on their wr's disappearing when they needed them most. They not only trade him they let their #2 go as well. The passing game is a huge part of the Bill's offense.
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Post by belac44 on Apr 6, 2024 14:19:08 GMT -7
No time to read all that unfortunately. Was the answer “ride any roller coaster at a theme park”?
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Post by Dry Heat on Apr 6, 2024 15:25:50 GMT -7
Look, no QB has it all. The GOAT and Manning couldn’t run worth squat. Kyler is the best QB we’ve had since the Warner unexpected blessing, who was supposed to be a backup for Leinart. He’s better than Jake the Snake and Palmer. First five years for Palmer: 15,100 yards passing, 64% completion rate, avg 7.3 yards/attempt, 109 TDs, 67 INTs, 108 sacks, 163 rush yard. First five years for Kyler: 15,647 yards passing, 66.6% completion rate, avg 7 yards/attempt, 120 TDs, 46 INTs, 149 sacks, 2,448 rush yards (at 5.8 yards/attpt!) It’s not even close. Murray’s only weakness vs Palmer is sacks, but that’s more than made up for in TD:INT ratio and rushing ability. BTW…Warner first five years? 14,000 passing yards, 66.6% completion rate, avg 8.1 yards/attpt, 103 TDs, 64 INTs, 108 sacks, 202 rushing yards. Super similar to Palmer’s first five. Be patient with our now only 26 yr old QB. Get him two more receiving weapons including a legit WR1. Upgrade the Oline’s pass protection without sacrificing the run blocking they achieved once Kyler returned, especially when he became more adept under center. The offense will be more than fine. OUR DEFENSE IS OUR ISSUE!!! I’m not at all sold that he’s better then Palmer. Palmer won a division title…a playoff game…played in an NFC Championship game…and if not injured by the Rams when the team was 9-1…would have arguably won another division title…definitely would have guided the team to another playoff appearance…and had also guided the Bengals…who had not made the playoffs in awhile…to the playoffs. The statistics are similar…but there is much more to playing QB then statistics. The eye test. Palmer was much better from the pocket then KM has shown to date. KM was and is obviously a much better runner then Palmer could ever have hoped to be. However, the only playoff game we saw KM play was arguably the worst playoff game we have ever seen a highly touted QB play in a very long time. The knock on Palmer was…he too could not win in the playoffs (1-3) life-time and that he got happy feet in the pocket when playoff defenses honed in on him. The knock on KM is he can’t win from the pocket as well when defenses hone in on him and keep him in the pocket with a cover (2) defense and force him to beat you from the pocket. So…time will tell…but the tape and the eye test are out there. However, statistics aside (which you point out are fairly close)…what Palmer accomplished…a Division Title…Perhaps Two Division Titles in the making before injury…an NFC Championship appearance…A Playoff Win…and (4) career playoff appearances…(3) with non-perennial playoff teams…does not place him second fiddle to KM…not at all…not yet…IMO. Because QB’s are judged by more than statistics. You got to win…win division titles, win playoff games and ultimately win Championships. Palmer has at least done a little more then KM in those areas…IMO…For the best Cardinal QBs…it’s Warner…Palmer…Hart…when you take those categories into account…with other good ones being Lomax…Jake…and KM. I’m not going to give Palmer any injury excuse that I’m not giving to Kyler. I was at the Green Bay game where he got injured just before the AJ Green target INT. He wasn’t right for the rest of the season after that, and out team was decimated by the playoffs as well. When you look in totality, Murray beats young Palmer in every category except sacks. That TD/INT ratio difference is huge. The vastly better running ability alongside the similar passing ability is HUGE. I agree at the end of the career QBs will be graded largely by their playoffs and mostly by their rings. Fitz has zero rings, but his stats tell much of his story. Be patient with our “little guy”, whose first five years were better than 6’-5” Palmer’s. Goodness, Palmer had two winning seasons out of 10 in the league before becoming a Cardinal, and then two more in his 5 years with us. Four winning seasons out of 15. Only one winning season in his first 6 years.
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Post by cardinalsins on Apr 6, 2024 18:15:34 GMT -7
Still holding a stats from 2021? This is why you can't ever have a analytical take on K1...cause you hold onto old hurts like a shipwrecked sailor to a life raft. I'm talking about the roster now...and the most recent season. Where you can see how this OL failed multiple QBs Maybe that 2021 year drove you to claim that Matt Coral would be a better QB in 2022. He plays for the UFL now. Last year was a throwaway year. We had new regime who spent next to nothing on free agents. Of course is wasn't going to be optimal. Our defense proved that. So is a throwaway year supposed to be used or is it an outlier? The point of the 2021 citation is people have claimed the OL has always been the problem and it hasn't been. And even with us not spending last year, you can see the progress our team made just looking at the run game. That's the other reason for the 2021 citation. With our run game improving so much, last year proved that our WR corp was probably a bigger issue than the OL. Or are we going to blame the OL for WR's not getting open? At what point are the homers going to acknowledge that Kyler might be responsible for sacks? Are you implying that Matt Corral was the guy I wanted? Pretty sure that I'm on record pushing for guys like Joe Burrow a year before he even came out. What I said about Corral was: 1. he was a 'fit' for KK's system 2. should be considered yet NOT taken in the first round 3. should be considered to push Kyler. Big difference between advocating for depth QBs than pushing for one as a priority 1st round pick. I've advocated to take Nix with a 2nd/3rd round pick to. Does that mean I'm promising he's a savior to? There are QBs I want. Then there are guys I say might be a fit for our system. Jayden Daniels is another one I don't know will be great but I've opined 'fits' in systems where he can compete with Kyler. I'm notoriously hard on QBs because they eat up so much cap. Very rarely will you ever see me push for QB, HARD, as others like to do. But you have to separate guys I think can be system fits, or added competition, and guys I'm really willing to invest in. For example, I've been against drafting every USC QB except Carson Palmer. I posted that I really wanted Carson back in the day. Same for Burrow. There have been a few others like Josh Allen, but not many. But to take a post I make and imply I want a kid is laughable. I've posted about every QB this year, more positive than usual, yet I've even said I'm unsure about every QB this year, even Maye. Despite posting about a lot of their talent. Yet I'm not pushing for a single one. What I have pushed for is taking one, because Kyler needs competition. Heck, if you really want to go look at old posts, might as well find the ones where I claim I'd much rather sign veteran QBs most of the time. I'm also on record saying I'd rather have smart game manager like Phil Sims, Purdy, etc.. and spend money elsewhere ensuring we have a strong OL/defense, whatever. For example, let's look at my post from last year? "I also think we should consider Bijan Robinson, the rb from Texas. I value RBs even lower than WRs along with most GMs. That kid is a top 10 talent who will likely slide to end of first round. The Bills are rumored to want him, but once again, if I trade back and get extra picks, you have to consider taking him. He will clearly be the BPA on the board and Connor is getting older. The kid is so talented he's the reason Keontay Ingram left for USC. He's light years ahead of our current rbs......But I think there's no way we pass on Jalen Carter or Will Anderson. And I think if you guys studied this years insane TE class, or watched Bijan Robison, you might be inclined to forget taking a WR in the first few rounds." Was I not right about Carter, Anderson, and Bijan being the best guys to take? I even posted they should be drafted in that order. The year Kyler came out I wanted Quennan or Bosa. Just because I say something positive about a QB doesn't mean I want a guy beyond a depth flyer. All it means is I've never felt Kyler is going to be the guy and we need to be prepared. I don't disagree with all of your posts man. For the most part, I agree with a ton of what you say. I just have to tackle the ones that I do disagree with. Being hard on QBs is fine. I was not a part of this forum before K1 was drafted. If we move on, I guess I'll see this trend continue.
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Post by respecttheprocess on Apr 6, 2024 18:36:27 GMT -7
I’m not at all sold that he’s better then Palmer. Palmer won a division title…a playoff game…played in an NFC Championship game…and if not injured by the Rams when the team was 9-1…would have arguably won another division title…definitely would have guided the team to another playoff appearance…and had also guided the Bengals…who had not made the playoffs in awhile…to the playoffs. The statistics are similar…but there is much more to playing QB then statistics. The eye test. Palmer was much better from the pocket then KM has shown to date. KM was and is obviously a much better runner then Palmer could ever have hoped to be. However, the only playoff game we saw KM play was arguably the worst playoff game we have ever seen a highly touted QB play in a very long time. The knock on Palmer was…he too could not win in the playoffs (1-3) life-time and that he got happy feet in the pocket when playoff defenses honed in on him. The knock on KM is he can’t win from the pocket as well when defenses hone in on him and keep him in the pocket with a cover (2) defense and force him to beat you from the pocket. So…time will tell…but the tape and the eye test are out there. However, statistics aside (which you point out are fairly close)…what Palmer accomplished…a Division Title…Perhaps Two Division Titles in the making before injury…an NFC Championship appearance…A Playoff Win…and (4) career playoff appearances…(3) with non-perennial playoff teams…does not place him second fiddle to KM…not at all…not yet…IMO. Because QB’s are judged by more than statistics. You got to win…win division titles, win playoff games and ultimately win Championships. Palmer has at least done a little more then KM in those areas…IMO…For the best Cardinal QBs…it’s Warner…Palmer…Hart…when you take those categories into account…with other good ones being Lomax…Jake…and KM. I’m not going to give Palmer any injury excuse that I’m not giving to Kyler. I was at the Green Bay game where he got injured just before the AJ Green target INT. He wasn’t right for the rest of the season after that, and out team was decimated by the playoffs as well. When you look in totality, Murray beats young Palmer in every category except sacks. That TD/INT ratio difference is huge. The vastly better running ability alongside the similar passing ability is HUGE. I agree at the end of the career QBs will be graded largely by their playoffs and mostly by their rings. Fitz has zero rings, but his stats tell much of his story. Be patient with our “little guy”, whose first five years were better than 6’-5” Palmer’s. Goodness, Palmer had two winning seasons out of 10 in the league before becoming a Cardinal, and then two more in his 5 years with us. Four winning seasons out of 15. Only one winning season in his first 6 years. And Palmer vs KM in leadership qualities? No one has ever questioned Palmer as the team leader he was…He NEVER showed up a fellow teammate…on the field or on the sideline and his after practice bucket throws with players where the loser dressed in whatever outfit the others deemed proper was legendary…and went a lot towards team building and team chemistry. I’m not here to throw darts at KM…he’s a talent…no doubt…and surround him with some more offensive talent…I’m all for it..but your opinion that “it’s not even close”…when KM has so much more to prove…is a bit off…when comparing him to Palmer…again…IMO. Win…divisions…playoffs…all while being a team leader…and dedicate oneself to improving where improvement needs to be done…and his talent should and will take him to where you want to place him…but not right now…not at 26…not today…because he’s not there YET…and he shouldn’t feel that he is…keep the hunger in him or chip on his shoulder to prove doubters…perhaps like me…wrong. But don’t give him anything YET…cause he hasn’t really won anything “team” wise…at the NFL level…YET! And that just doesn’t push the needle in his favor…YET…again…IMO.
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Post by Dry Heat on Apr 6, 2024 19:49:14 GMT -7
I’m not going to give Palmer any injury excuse that I’m not giving to Kyler. I was at the Green Bay game where he got injured just before the AJ Green target INT. He wasn’t right for the rest of the season after that, and out team was decimated by the playoffs as well. When you look in totality, Murray beats young Palmer in every category except sacks. That TD/INT ratio difference is huge. The vastly better running ability alongside the similar passing ability is HUGE. I agree at the end of the career QBs will be graded largely by their playoffs and mostly by their rings. Fitz has zero rings, but his stats tell much of his story. Be patient with our “little guy”, whose first five years were better than 6’-5” Palmer’s. Goodness, Palmer had two winning seasons out of 10 in the league before becoming a Cardinal, and then two more in his 5 years with us. Four winning seasons out of 15. Only one winning season in his first 6 years. And Palmer vs KM in leadership qualities? No one has ever questioned Palmer as the team leader he was…He NEVER showed up a fellow teammate…on the field or on the sideline and his after practice bucket throws with players where the loser dressed in whatever outfit the others deemed proper was legendary…and went a lot towards team building and team chemistry. I’m not here to throw darts at KM…he’s a talent…no doubt…and surround him with some more offensive talent…I’m all for it..but your opinion that “it’s not even close”…when KM has so much more to prove…is a bit off…when comparing him to Palmer…again…IMO. Win…divisions…playoffs…all while being a team leader…and dedicate oneself to improving where improvement needs to be done…and his talent should and will take him to where you want to place him…but not right now…not at 26…not today…because he’s not there YET…and he shouldn’t feel that he is…keep the hunger in him or chip on his shoulder to prove doubters…perhaps like me…wrong. But don’t give him anything YET…cause he hasn’t really won anything “team” wise…at the NFL level…YET! And that just doesn’t push the needle in his favor…YET…again…IMO. To be clear, I’m comparing Palmer and Kyler when they were 26 and 4-5 years into careers. I have no idea what kind of leader Carson was in Cincinnati. Things certainly didn’t end well there, and if we see that with Kyler here I think we’d all be pretty upset at “the little guy”. “The little guy” has achieved top ten pick in two sports, first pick in the NFL draft, ROY, a few Pro Bowls, and is likely wealthier than all of us in this thread combined. I don’t think we should be demeaning this 26 year old with “the little guy”, and I think we should put his career in correct context.
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Post by respecttheprocess on Apr 6, 2024 21:57:28 GMT -7
And Palmer vs KM in leadership qualities? No one has ever questioned Palmer as the team leader he was…He NEVER showed up a fellow teammate…on the field or on the sideline and his after practice bucket throws with players where the loser dressed in whatever outfit the others deemed proper was legendary…and went a lot towards team building and team chemistry. I’m not here to throw darts at KM…he’s a talent…no doubt…and surround him with some more offensive talent…I’m all for it..but your opinion that “it’s not even close”…when KM has so much more to prove…is a bit off…when comparing him to Palmer…again…IMO. Win…divisions…playoffs…all while being a team leader…and dedicate oneself to improving where improvement needs to be done…and his talent should and will take him to where you want to place him…but not right now…not at 26…not today…because he’s not there YET…and he shouldn’t feel that he is…keep the hunger in him or chip on his shoulder to prove doubters…perhaps like me…wrong. But don’t give him anything YET…cause he hasn’t really won anything “team” wise…at the NFL level…YET! And that just doesn’t push the needle in his favor…YET…again…IMO. To be clear, I’m comparing Palmer and Kyler when they were 26 and 4-5 years into careers. I have no idea what kind of leader Carson was in Cincinnati. Things certainly didn’t end well there, and if we see that with Kyler here I think we’d all be pretty upset at “the little guy”. “The little guy” has achieved top ten pick in two sports, first pick in the NFL draft, ROY, a few Pro Bowls, and is likely wealthier than all of us in this thread combined. I don’t think we should be demeaning this 26 year old with “the little guy”, and I think we should put his career in correct context. To also be clear…I’m not demeaning KM in any way. Your argument is that KM is better then Carson Palmer 5 years into their careers…and “that it’s not even close”. But that’s not the case. You’ve already listed stats which can be argued either way…but by no means establish KM as the better QB. Both were drafted 1st in their class. Through their first (5) years, both were selected to (2) Pro Bowls. KM won ROY honors…true. However, Palmer finished in the top five in League MVP voting and League Offensive Player of the Year Voting…during his first (5) years…KM did not. Palmer finished in the top (3) Comeback Player of the Year honors…KM did not. Also, Palmer led the league in NFL TDS and NFL Completion Percentage during his first (5) years…KM did not. Palmer…not a mobile QB by any means…also led the league in sack percentage…KM…a way way way more mobile QB did not. While that stat is in part due to OL play…it’s also in part due to QB release, QB reads, QB check downs and QB pocket play…which Palmer was better at during his first (5) years compared to KM…according to NFL stats. Palmer also led the league in TD percentage during his first (5) years…KM did not. Finally, Palmer led the Bengals to their first playoff appearance and winning season in 15 years in his first (5) years…and his only playoff performance during that time…was cut short after only (1) pass because of injury…and…although a loss…was nothing like KM’s only playoff performance turned out to be. So…to say that KM’s first (5) years far surpasses Palmer’s is really not accurate…by any statistical standard that you look at…that was my point.
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Post by Dry Heat on Apr 6, 2024 23:07:12 GMT -7
To be clear, I’m comparing Palmer and Kyler when they were 26 and 4-5 years into careers. I have no idea what kind of leader Carson was in Cincinnati. Things certainly didn’t end well there, and if we see that with Kyler here I think we’d all be pretty upset at “the little guy”. “The little guy” has achieved top ten pick in two sports, first pick in the NFL draft, ROY, a few Pro Bowls, and is likely wealthier than all of us in this thread combined. I don’t think we should be demeaning this 26 year old with “the little guy”, and I think we should put his career in correct context. To also be clear…I’m not demeaning KM in any way. Your argument is that KM is better then Carson Palmer 5 years into their careers…and “that it’s not even close”. But that’s not the case. You’ve already listed stats which can be argued either way…but by no means establish KM as the better QB. Both were drafted 1st in their class. Through their first (5) years, both were selected to (2) Pro Bowls. KM won ROY honors…true. However, Palmer finished in the top five in League MVP voting and League Offensive Player of the Year Voting…during his first (5) years…KM did not. Palmer finished in the top (3) Comeback Player of the Year honors…KM did not. Also, Palmer led the league in NFL TDS and NFL Completion Percentage during his first (5) years…KM did not. Palmer…not a mobile QB by any means…also led the league in sack percentage…KM…a way way way more mobile QB did not. While that stat is in part due to OL play…it’s also in part due to QB release, QB reads, QB check downs and QB pocket play…which Palmer was better at during his first (5) years compared to KM…according to NFL stats. Palmer also led the league in TD percentage during his first (5) years…KM did not. Finally, Palmer led the Bengals to their first playoff appearance and winning season in 15 years in his first (5) years…and his only playoff performance during that time…was cut short after only (1) pass because of injury…and…although a loss…was nothing like KM’s only playoff performance turned out to be. So…to say that KM’s first (5) years far surpasses Palmer’s is really not accurate…by any statistical standard that you look at…that was my point. We can both Wikipedia awards. Kyler actually did finish in the top 3 comeback player of the year awards. He was right in the MVP race in Dec 2021 with Brady and Rodgers, and projected as a top contender for MVP going into the 2022 season. Murray has different but as many accomplishments as Palmer in college and their first five years. I’m using stats to say Palmer was “not even close” to Kyler his first 5 years. Take the roster out of it, take the coaching out, take the playbook out…and Murray accounted for 2,800 more yards, 11 more TD’s, and 21 less INT’s. That’s “not even close” for me. I like Palmer. But the guy never performed in the playoffs and struggled in big games. Known for Pick-6’s at the worst time. Kyler getting destroyed vs the Rams in his first playoff game while injured at 24 yrs old can be compared to Palmer being destroyed in our Carolina playoff game when he was injured, but much more of a vet. Regardless, I’ll give you “not even close”, as my point is he needs to be viewed in the context of his first five years. He compares very favorably to Palmer and every other guy we’ve had in their first five years in the NFL not named Warner, and he was a shocking surprise both with The Greatest Show on Turf and then here. prosportsoutlook.com/the-7-greatest-records-kyler-murray-already-owns/
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Post by respecttheprocess on Apr 7, 2024 7:43:59 GMT -7
To also be clear…I’m not demeaning KM in any way. Your argument is that KM is better then Carson Palmer 5 years into their careers…and “that it’s not even close”. But that’s not the case. You’ve already listed stats which can be argued either way…but by no means establish KM as the better QB. Both were drafted 1st in their class. Through their first (5) years, both were selected to (2) Pro Bowls. KM won ROY honors…true. However, Palmer finished in the top five in League MVP voting and League Offensive Player of the Year Voting…during his first (5) years…KM did not. Palmer finished in the top (3) Comeback Player of the Year honors…KM did not. Also, Palmer led the league in NFL TDS and NFL Completion Percentage during his first (5) years…KM did not. Palmer…not a mobile QB by any means…also led the league in sack percentage…KM…a way way way more mobile QB did not. While that stat is in part due to OL play…it’s also in part due to QB release, QB reads, QB check downs and QB pocket play…which Palmer was better at during his first (5) years compared to KM…according to NFL stats. Palmer also led the league in TD percentage during his first (5) years…KM did not. Finally, Palmer led the Bengals to their first playoff appearance and winning season in 15 years in his first (5) years…and his only playoff performance during that time…was cut short after only (1) pass because of injury…and…although a loss…was nothing like KM’s only playoff performance turned out to be. So…to say that KM’s first (5) years far surpasses Palmer’s is really not accurate…by any statistical standard that you look at…that was my point. We can both Wikipedia awards. Kyler actually did finish in the top 3 comeback player of the year awards. He was right in the MVP race in Dec 2021 with Brady and Rodgers, and projected as a top contender for MVP going into the 2022 season. Murray has different but as many accomplishments as Palmer in college and their first five years. I’m using stats to say Palmer was “not even close” to Kyler his first 5 years. Take the roster out of it, take the coaching out, take the playbook out…and Murray accounted for 2,800 more yards, 11 more TD’s, and 21 less INT’s. That’s “not even close” for me. I like Palmer. But the guy never performed in the playoffs and struggled in big games. Known for Pick-6’s at the worst time. Kyler getting destroyed vs the Rams in his first playoff game while injured at 24 yrs old can be compared to Palmer being destroyed in our Carolina playoff game when he was injured, but much more of a vet. Regardless, I’ll give you “not even close”, as my point is he needs to be viewed in the context of his first five years. He compares very favorably to Palmer and every other guy we’ve had in their first five years in the NFL not named Warner, and he was a shocking surprise both with The Greatest Show on Turf and then here. prosportsoutlook.com/the-7-greatest-records-kyler-murray-already-owns/Now we are getting to some common ground. I’ll agree that KM and Palmer are comparable in their first (5) years if the “not even close” position is conceded. I will also concede Palmer…later in his career was known as a pick 6 machine and had difficulty in big games. But, to give the Devil his do, he still made it to (4) playoff games, an NFC Championship game, won a division, won a playoff game and battled back from (2) ACL injuries…to be successful post both injuries…second in MVP voting upon doing so after his 2nd surgery…which oftentimes goes unnoticed…and not very easy to do…on a restructured knee the second time. Another thing that goes unnoticed is Palmer was hurt in his first playoff game against Pittsburg…being removed early on in the game after throwing and completing his (1) and only pass…for 66 yards I might add. What might have been in that game…we will never know…but it was his only playoff game during this first (5) year discussion we are having. We all know what KM did in his only playoff game. Other food for thought over their first (5) years that goes somewhat unnoticed in the stats; 1) Won/Loss record (65 games)…KM 28-36-1…Palmer 32-33. 2) Fumbles…KM 42…Palmer 29; 3) Sacked…KM 149…Palmer 108; 4) Sacked Yards Lost…KM 915 Again…I’ll concede OL play is an important element in the sack statistics above if it’s also conceded that QB pocket play…from reads…to audibles…to release…to check downs…to ball security…is as much on the QB as anyone else. KM and KK even admitted in various post game interviews that those areas needed improvement on his part. At 26…with his contract in the fold…KM is our QB. His first (5) years are indeed comparable to Palmer’s. The question is and remains…can he get to at least (3) more playoff games…winning more then (1)…win a division…get to an NFC Championship Game…and dare I say…get to a Super Bowl. We can only hope. Regardless…he’s got some work to do on his own…as the stats…beyond running suggest. But where you and I can agree…get him a top (3) WR…sure up the OL…and defense…and see if he matures at the QB position after his ACL injury that Palmer still was able to do and successfully compete after his.
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Post by CardsFanQC on Apr 7, 2024 9:52:54 GMT -7
I am going to try and bring a different perspective on this topic -- first and foremost, I was the poster the first week KM1 was drafted who stated the Cards could only have 1 receiver less than 6'1" tall yet SK kept making mistakes for 3 yrs (with help of K2) and defying physics to getting smallish receivers for a small QB. When SK got him a 6'4" receiver and despite K2 having the lowest offensive sets with receivers in motion pre-snap and the fact DHop ran 97% of his route tree between the left hash and sideline ... KM1 in 1st 2 yrs of DHop was a top 5 MVP candidate for the first 8-9 games of those 2 seasons. Then each year the offense took and incredible tumble the last 7 games. Reasons which were searched for as to cause my Cardinals fan centered on either 1) K2's offense developed new plays each off-season which worked but once there was tape by DC's, K2 never had a counter set of plays or 2) KM1's decreased QBR in 2nd half was due to the new Call of Duty games always being released around beginning of November and KM1 was not studying film while playing too much "COD." So enter 2024 with a full training camp for KM1 and these positive developments from those years with SK and K2 running the offense and selecting offensive players - - Petzing is a better play called than K2.
- Petzing's offense with KM1 under center incorporating play action passes with rollouts - major plus IMO.
- Drafting of hopefully MHJ (at #5) and Pearsall, Corley, Polk, Burton, Tez Walker, Brenden Rice - much better overall WR room assuming MHJ is a Cardinal.
- Better OL and run game
- Trey McBride - top 3-4 TE in the NFL especially as Kittle/Kelce are reaching "the end."
- KM1 trust and respect of JG/DP over K2
- JG/DP have already got KM1 out of the bad habit (some scouts worried that Caleb Williams does this too much) of trying to get out of the pocket too soon and when he does to go out the "BACK" side causing sacks to be 15-18 yd losses ... instead of stepping up and escaping out the front or sides.
I want to remind Cardinal fans that in 2023, the Cardinals had more regular season wins vs. playoff teams than the KC Chiefs - ruminate on that fact for awhile !!!
I want to show Cardinal fans that it is possible relative to other top 10 QB's that maybe KM1's contract is not as big an albatross for 2024 and especially 2025 + ... IF under Petzing this year, KM1 proves once and for all he is the franchise QB. QB Name | CAP - 2024 | CAP - 2025 | CAP - 2026 |
| CAP - 2027 | CAP - 2028 | CAP - 2029 | Murray, Kyler | $49,118,177 | $43,535,000 | $53,260,677 |
| $43,535,000 | $46,357,360 | UFA | Allen, Josh | $30,356, 281 | $43,231, 281 | $63,939,000 |
| $56,959,000 | $48,229,595 | UFA | Mahomes, P. | $37,008,269 | $66,258,269 | $68,664,888 |
| $64,814,888 | $32,575,000 | $34,975,000 | Hurts, Jalen | $13,558,800 | $21,769,800 | $31,771,800 |
| $41,832,800 | $47,149,000 | VOID - $97.53M | Stafford, M | $49,500,000 | $50,500,000 | $49,500,000 |
| Retired ? | Retired ?
| Retired ?
| Burrow, Joe | $29,714,982 | $46,250,000 | $48,250,000 |
| $52,250,000 | $53,500,000 | $57,539,018 | Jackson, Lamar | $32,400,000 | $43,650,000 | $74,650,000 |
| $74,650,000 | VOID - $12,5M | VOID - $4.5M | Herbert, Justin | $19,345,675 | $37,345,675 | $46,345,675 |
| $58,345,675 | $71,121,300 | $59,500,000 |
Remember for the important years for Cardinals assuming the 2024 draft is as successful as Card fans hope - KM1's 2025 - 2027 can be lowered by using some of the 2024 "excess" cap to reposition some of the bonuses from future year (lower those years cap) to 2024. Of course during the season, KM1 will need to prove he "is the man" in order for Monti to consider.
QB's Dak Prescott - Jared Goff - Brock Purdy - Trevor Lawrence - Tua Tagovailoa - Jordan Love will all be new members of the $50M+/APY club. This is why KM1 having a high cap in 2023 & 2024 was okay because the Cards were not going to be going for the NFC West title; however, KM1 having a manageable cap # for 2025 - 2028 will setup Monti with plenty of flexibility coupled with good drafts to bring Cardinal fans multiple NFC West titles and maybe even SB appearances ?
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Post by flash on Apr 7, 2024 10:07:01 GMT -7
I’m not at all sold that he’s better then Palmer. Palmer won a division title…a playoff game…played in an NFC Championship game…and if not injured by the Rams when the team was 9-1…would have arguably won another division title…definitely would have guided the team to another playoff appearance…and had also guided the Bengals…who had not made the playoffs in awhile…to the playoffs. The statistics are similar…but there is much more to playing QB then statistics. The eye test. Palmer was much better from the pocket then KM has shown to date. KM was and is obviously a much better runner then Palmer could ever have hoped to be. However, the only playoff game we saw KM play was arguably the worst playoff game we have ever seen a highly touted QB play in a very long time. The knock on Palmer was…he too could not win in the playoffs (1-3) life-time and that he got happy feet in the pocket when playoff defenses honed in on him. The knock on KM is he can’t win from the pocket as well when defenses hone in on him and keep him in the pocket with a cover (2) defense and force him to beat you from the pocket. So…time will tell…but the tape and the eye test are out there. However, statistics aside (which you point out are fairly close)…what Palmer accomplished…a Division Title…Perhaps Two Division Titles in the making before injury…an NFC Championship appearance…A Playoff Win…and (4) career playoff appearances…(3) with non-perennial playoff teams…does not place him second fiddle to KM…not at all…not yet…IMO. Because QB’s are judged by more than statistics. You got to win…win division titles, win playoff games and ultimately win Championships. Palmer has at least done a little more then KM in those areas…IMO…For the best Cardinal QBs…it’s Warner…Palmer…Hart…when you take those categories into account…with other good ones being Lomax…Jake…and KM. I’m not going to give Palmer any injury excuse that I’m not giving to Kyler. I was at the Green Bay game where he got injured just before the AJ Green target INT. He wasn’t right for the rest of the season after that, and out team was decimated by the playoffs as well. When you look in totality, Murray beats young Palmer in every category except sacks. That TD/INT ratio difference is huge. The vastly better running ability alongside the similar passing ability is HUGE. I agree at the end of the career QBs will be graded largely by their playoffs and mostly by their rings. Fitz has zero rings, but his stats tell much of his story. Be patient with our “little guy”, whose first five years were better than 6’-5” Palmer’s. Goodness, Palmer had two winning seasons out of 10 in the league before becoming a Cardinal, and then two more in his 5 years with us. Four winning seasons out of 15. Only one winning season in his first 6 years. D.H.
Your comparison of Kyler to Palmer and Warner in their first 5 years was great. I did not know what you posted about them. I am thinking that Warner had Fitz, Boldin and Breaston as WR's at one point during his tenure in Arizona. And in 2015(13/3 Win/Loss), Palmer had two 1000+ WR's in Larry and John Brown. Kyler did well when he had DeAndre, Kirk, A.J. Green and Ertz in 2021(11/6 record).
We will find out if Kyler has what it takes this upcoming season to be our QB of the future. Even if we don't draft Marvin or for that matter either Nabers or Odunze...Kyler will need to work with the team he has when the regular season starts. If we miss out on the top 3 WR's, if we end up with an 9+ win season, I am fine with that. However, if we take Marvin, Nabers or Odunze, I think we need to have an 11+ Win Season. Unless the first WR we draft turns out to bust...
Good post D.H....
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Post by End Zone on Apr 7, 2024 10:18:49 GMT -7
Look, no QB has it all. The GOAT and Manning couldn’t run worth squat. Kyler is the best QB we’ve had since the Warner unexpected blessing, who was supposed to be a backup for Leinart. He’s better than Jake the Snake and Palmer. First five years for Palmer: 15,100 yards passing, 64% completion rate, avg 7.3 yards/attempt, 109 TDs, 67 INTs, 108 sacks, 163 rush yard. First five years for Kyler: 15,647 yards passing, 66.6% completion rate, avg 7 yards/attempt, 120 TDs, 46 INTs, 149 sacks, 2,448 rush yards (at 5.8 yards/attpt!) It’s not even close. Murray’s only weakness vs Palmer is sacks, but that’s more than made up for in TD:INT ratio and rushing ability. BTW…Warner first five years? 14,000 passing yards, 66.6% completion rate, avg 8.1 yards/attpt, 103 TDs, 64 INTs, 108 sacks, 202 rushing yards. Super similar to Palmer’s first five. Be patient with our now only 26 yr old QB. Get him two more receiving weapons including a legit WR1. Upgrade the Oline’s pass protection without sacrificing the run blocking they achieved once Kyler returned, especially when he became more adept under center. The offense will be more than fine. OUR DEFENSE IS OUR ISSUE!!! DH, thank you for the all-CAPs + 3 exclamation points. Defense wins Championships. Let's hope Monti gets it too.
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Post by Dry Heat on Apr 7, 2024 16:09:34 GMT -7
I am going to try and bring a different perspective on this topic -- first and foremost, I was the poster the first week KM1 was drafted who stated the Cards could only have 1 receiver less than 6'1" tall yet SK kept making mistakes for 3 yrs (with help of K2) and defying physics to getting smallish receivers for a small QB. When SK got him a 6'4" receiver and despite K2 having the lowest offensive sets with receivers in motion pre-snap and the fact DHop ran 97% of his route tree between the left hash and sideline ... KM1 in 1st 2 yrs of DHop was a top 5 MVP candidate for the first 8-9 games of those 2 seasons. Then each year the offense took and incredible tumble the last 7 games. Reasons which were searched for as to cause my Cardinals fan centered on either 1) K2's offense developed new plays each off-season which worked but once there was tape by DC's, K2 never had a counter set of plays or 2) KM1's decreased QBR in 2nd half was due to the new Call of Duty games always being released around beginning of November and KM1 was not studying film while playing too much "COD." So enter 2024 with a full training camp for KM1 and these positive developments from those years with SK and K2 running the offense and selecting offensive players - - Petzing is a better play called than K2.
- Petzing's offense with KM1 under center incorporating play action passes with rollouts - major plus IMO.
- Drafting of hopefully MHJ (at #5) and Pearsall, Corley, Polk, Burton, Tez Walker, Brenden Rice - much better overall WR room assuming MHJ is a Cardinal.
- Better OL and run game
- Trey McBride - top 3-4 TE in the NFL especially as Kittle/Kelce are reaching "the end."
- KM1 trust and respect of JG/DP over K2
- JG/DP have already got KM1 out of the bad habit (some scouts worried that Caleb Williams does this too much) of trying to get out of the pocket too soon and when he does to go out the "BACK" side causing sacks to be 15-18 yd losses ... instead of stepping up and escaping out the front or sides.
I want to remind Cardinal fans that in 2023, the Cardinals had more regular season wins vs. playoff teams than the KC Chiefs - ruminate on that fact for awhile !!!
I want to show Cardinal fans that it is possible relative to other top 10 QB's that maybe KM1's contract is not as big an albatross for 2024 and especially 2025 + ... IF under Petzing this year, KM1 proves once and for all he is the franchise QB. QB Name | CAP - 2024 | CAP - 2025 | CAP - 2026 |
| CAP - 2027 | CAP - 2028 | CAP - 2029 | Murray, Kyler | $49,118,177 | $43,535,000 | $53,260,677 |
| $43,535,000 | $46,357,360 | UFA | Allen, Josh | $30,356, 281 | $43,231, 281 | $63,939,000 |
| $56,959,000 | $48,229,595 | UFA | Mahomes, P. | $37,008,269 | $66,258,269 | $68,664,888 |
| $64,814,888 | $32,575,000 | $34,975,000 | Hurts, Jalen | $13,558,800 | $21,769,800 | $31,771,800 |
| $41,832,800 | $47,149,000 | VOID - $97,553,000 | Stafford, M | $49,500,000 | $50,500,000 | $49,500,000 |
| Retired ? | Retired ?
| Retired ?
| Burrow, Joe | $29,714,982 | $46,250,000 | $48,250,000 |
| $52,250,000 | $53,500,000 | $57,539,018 | Jackson, Lamar | $32,400,000 | $43,650,000 | $74,650,000 |
| $74,650,000 | VOID - $12,5M | VOID - $4.5M | Herbert, Justin | $19,345,675 | $37,345,675 | $46,345,675 |
| $58,345,675 | $71,121,300 | $59,500,000 |
Remember for the important years for Cardinals assuming the 2024 draft is as successful as Card fans hope - KM1's 2025 - 2027 can be lowered by using some of the 2024 "excess" cap to reposition some of the bonuses from future year (lower those years cap) to 2024. Of course during the season, KM1 will need to prove he "is the man" in order for Monti to consider. QB's Dak Prescott - Jared Goff - Brock Purdy - Trevor Lawrence - Tua Tagovailoa - Jordan Love will all be new members of the $50M+/APY club. This is why KM1 having a high cap in 2023 & 2024 was okay because the Cards were not going to be going for the NFC West title; however, KM1 having a manageable cap # for 2025 - 2028 will setup Monti with plenty of flexibility coupled with good drafts to bring Cardinal fans multiple NFC West titles and maybe even SB appearances ?
Love your research and analysis. Keep it up! We are sitting on $30 mil 2024 cap for some reason…
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Post by End Zone on Apr 7, 2024 16:17:11 GMT -7
I am going to try and bring a different perspective on this topic -- first and foremost, I was the poster the first week KM1 was drafted who stated the Cards could only have 1 receiver less than 6'1" tall yet SK kept making mistakes for 3 yrs (with help of K2) and defying physics to getting smallish receivers for a small QB. When SK got him a 6'4" receiver and despite K2 having the lowest offensive sets with receivers in motion pre-snap and the fact DHop ran 97% of his route tree between the left hash and sideline ... KM1 in 1st 2 yrs of DHop was a top 5 MVP candidate for the first 8-9 games of those 2 seasons. Then each year the offense took and incredible tumble the last 7 games. Reasons which were searched for as to cause my Cardinals fan centered on either 1) K2's offense developed new plays each off-season which worked but once there was tape by DC's, K2 never had a counter set of plays or 2) KM1's decreased QBR in 2nd half was due to the new Call of Duty games always being released around beginning of November and KM1 was not studying film while playing too much "COD." So enter 2024 with a full training camp for KM1 and these positive developments from those years with SK and K2 running the offense and selecting offensive players - - Petzing is a better play called than K2.
- Petzing's offense with KM1 under center incorporating play action passes with rollouts - major plus IMO.
- Drafting of hopefully MHJ (at #5) and Pearsall, Corley, Polk, Burton, Tez Walker, Brenden Rice - much better overall WR room assuming MHJ is a Cardinal.
- Better OL and run game
- Trey McBride - top 3-4 TE in the NFL especially as Kittle/Kelce are reaching "the end."
- KM1 trust and respect of JG/DP over K2
- JG/DP have already got KM1 out of the bad habit (some scouts worried that Caleb Williams does this too much) of trying to get out of the pocket too soon and when he does to go out the "BACK" side causing sacks to be 15-18 yd losses ... instead of stepping up and escaping out the front or sides.
I want to remind Cardinal fans that in 2023, the Cardinals had more regular season wins vs. playoff teams than the KC Chiefs - ruminate on that fact for awhile !!!
I want to show Cardinal fans that it is possible relative to other top 10 QB's that maybe KM1's contract is not as big an albatross for 2024 and especially 2025 + ... IF under Petzing this year, KM1 proves once and for all he is the franchise QB. QB Name | CAP - 2024 | CAP - 2025 | CAP - 2026 |
| CAP - 2027 | CAP - 2028 | CAP - 2029 | Murray, Kyler | $49,118,177 | $43,535,000 | $53,260,677 |
| $43,535,000 | $46,357,360 | UFA | Allen, Josh | $30,356, 281 | $43,231, 281 | $63,939,000 |
| $56,959,000 | $48,229,595 | UFA | Mahomes, P. | $37,008,269 | $66,258,269 | $68,664,888 |
| $64,814,888 | $32,575,000 | $34,975,000 | Hurts, Jalen | $13,558,800 | $21,769,800 | $31,771,800 |
| $41,832,800 | $47,149,000 | VOID - $97,553,000 | Stafford, M | $49,500,000 | $50,500,000 | $49,500,000 |
| Retired ? | Retired ?
| Retired ?
| Burrow, Joe | $29,714,982 | $46,250,000 | $48,250,000 |
| $52,250,000 | $53,500,000 | $57,539,018 | Jackson, Lamar | $32,400,000 | $43,650,000 | $74,650,000 |
| $74,650,000 | VOID - $12,5M | VOID - $4.5M | Herbert, Justin | $19,345,675 | $37,345,675 | $46,345,675 |
| $58,345,675 | $71,121,300 | $59,500,000 |
Remember for the important years for Cardinals assuming the 2024 draft is as successful as Card fans hope - KM1's 2025 - 2027 can be lowered by using some of the 2024 "excess" cap to reposition some of the bonuses from future year (lower those years cap) to 2024. Of course during the season, KM1 will need to prove he "is the man" in order for Monti to consider. QB's Dak Prescott - Jared Goff - Brock Purdy - Trevor Lawrence - Tua Tagovailoa - Jordan Love will all be new members of the $50M+/APY club. This is why KM1 having a high cap in 2023 & 2024 was okay because the Cards were not going to be going for the NFC West title; however, KM1 having a manageable cap # for 2025 - 2028 will setup Monti with plenty of flexibility coupled with good drafts to bring Cardinal fans multiple NFC West titles and maybe even SB appearances ?
Love your research and analysis. Keep it up! We are sitting on $30 mil 2024 cap for some reason… I think we discussed why Cardinals GMs in the past carried a large sum in the checkbook. The figure I recall was 10% CAP was held as a rainy day fund, on average. By Januarey, the fund is almost gone. The boss gets a lot of unplanned player bills during a regular season.
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