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Post by respecttheprocess on Mar 24, 2024 8:48:11 GMT -7
I’ve read numerous posts on this board about trading out of the #4 spot…but for what??? If it’s Minnesota…what amounts to swapping first round picks and picking up another late round first rounder? So now you have (3) firsts instead of (2). Is it worth just that? At #4 you can not only pick a generational talent at WR but repair a glaring need at a position that has been devoid of talent and someone KM desperately needs to throw to…A BIG WR with a HOF radius and superior route running ability…that many an expert have said is really the best pick in the draft. To me…unless you’re getting an extra #1 this year and an extra #1 next year…you don’t move the pick. No matter how talented a draft class is…there are far less guarantees the later in the round you pick. So…pick your player at #4…a player you need…a player your QB needs…who btw is on the small size…and move on to your other picks in your rebuild. But just picking up an extra #1 later in the round…and passing up on a more sure bet for just that extra #1 pick is not worth it…sweeten the pie with an extra #1 next year…and I’ll listen. But if not…IMO…I’m picking not only the best player in the draft…but the best WR in the class…and perhaps in a generation…this team has not been the same in the WR room without a FITZ or DHOP on the outside to throw 50/50 balls to…or who have the radius, route running ability and/or hands they had…nuff said.
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Post by Dry Heat on Mar 24, 2024 9:23:12 GMT -7
I’ve read numerous posts on this board about trading out of the #4 spot…but for what??? If it’s Minnesota…what amounts to swapping first round picks and picking up another late round first rounder? So now you have (3) firsts instead of (2). Is it worth just that? At #4 you can not only pick a generational talent at WR but repair a glaring need at a position that has been devoid of talent and someone KM desperately needs to throw to…A BIG WR with a HOF radius and superior route running ability…that many an expert have said is really the best pick in the draft. To me…unless you’re getting an extra #1 this year and an extra #1 next year…you don’t move the pick. No matter how talented a draft class is…there are far less guarantees the later in the round you pick. So…pick your player at #4…a player you need…a player your QB needs…who btw is on the small size…and move on to your other picks in your rebuild. But just picking up an extra #1 later in the round…and passing up on a more sure bet for just that extra #1 pick is not worth it…sweeten the pie with an extra #1 next year…and I’ll listen. But if not…IMO…I’m picking not only the best player in the draft…but the best WR in the class…and perhaps in a generation…this team has not been the same in the WR room without a FITZ or DHOP on the outside to throw 50/50 balls to…or who have the radius, route running ability and/or hands they had…nuff said. Odunze is just as tall, stronger, and much better at 50/50 balls on the outside. He’s also a dawg, whereas MHJ seems a bit shy. I still need to be convinced MHJ is in his own tier as “generational”. He’s an awesome WR prospect along with two or three others in this draft IMO so far.
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Post by CardsFanQC on Mar 24, 2024 9:24:57 GMT -7
I’ve read numerous posts on this board about trading out of the #4 spot…but for what??? If it’s Minnesota…what amounts to swapping first round picks and picking up another late round first rounder? So now you have (3) firsts instead of (2). Is it worth just that? At #4 you can not only pick a generational talent at WR but repair a glaring need at a position that has been devoid of talent and someone KM desperately needs to throw to…A BIG WR with a HOF radius and superior route running ability…that many an expert have said is really the best pick in the draft. To me…unless you’re getting an extra #1 this year and an extra #1 next year…you don’t move the pick. No matter how talented a draft class is…there are far less guarantees the later in the round you pick. So…pick your player at #4…a player you need…a player your QB needs…who btw is on the small size…and move on to your other picks in your rebuild. But just picking up an extra #1 later in the round…and passing up on a more sure bet for just that extra #1 pick is not worth it…sweeten the pie with an extra #1 next year…and I’ll listen. But if not…IMO…I’m picking not only the best player in the draft…but the best WR in the class…and perhaps in a generation…this team has not been the same in the WR room without a FITZ or DHOP on the outside to throw 50/50 balls to…or who have the radius, route running ability and/or hands they had…nuff said. Not too many (if any) people on this forum want to trade #4 for #11 & #23; however based on the Trey Lance, Mitch Trubisky, Sam Darnold etc ... trades, Monti should also receive a 2025 1st rounder from the Vikings (in addition to #11/#23) or if trading with the Giants, a trade must include #47 (2024) and either #70 (2024) or a 2025 2rd rounder.. Jets traded up from #6 to #3 in 2018 to get Sam Darnold and gave the Colts - #6, #37, #49 and a 2019 2nd rounder. The NY Giants must be reminded of this trade because the Giants look at Drake Maye and JJ McCarthy pretty equally so for the Giants pick #4 is almost the same value as trading up to #3.
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Post by respecttheprocess on Mar 24, 2024 10:33:18 GMT -7
I’ve read numerous posts on this board about trading out of the #4 spot…but for what??? If it’s Minnesota…what amounts to swapping first round picks and picking up another late round first rounder? So now you have (3) firsts instead of (2). Is it worth just that? At #4 you can not only pick a generational talent at WR but repair a glaring need at a position that has been devoid of talent and someone KM desperately needs to throw to…A BIG WR with a HOF radius and superior route running ability…that many an expert have said is really the best pick in the draft. To me…unless you’re getting an extra #1 this year and an extra #1 next year…you don’t move the pick. No matter how talented a draft class is…there are far less guarantees the later in the round you pick. So…pick your player at #4…a player you need…a player your QB needs…who btw is on the small size…and move on to your other picks in your rebuild. But just picking up an extra #1 later in the round…and passing up on a more sure bet for just that extra #1 pick is not worth it…sweeten the pie with an extra #1 next year…and I’ll listen. But if not…IMO…I’m picking not only the best player in the draft…but the best WR in the class…and perhaps in a generation…this team has not been the same in the WR room without a FITZ or DHOP on the outside to throw 50/50 balls to…or who have the radius, route running ability and/or hands they had…nuff said. Odunze is just as tall, stronger, and much better at 50/50 balls on the outside. He’s also a dawg, whereas MHJ seems a bit shy. I still need to be convinced MHJ is in his own tier as “generational”. He’s an awesome WR prospect along with two or three others in this draft IMO so far. So…if you feel Odunza is more “generational” then MHJ…you take him at #4…but can you really be so sure that even someone like Odunza will be there in the later picks in round #1? To me…picking at #4…must be a player you’re as sure of as can be. QB’s are a crap shoot…positional players are less likely to be a total bust. MHJ…if not like FITZ or DHOP…is more then likely a sure bet NFL WR then any other on the board at #4…and fills a need our particular type of QB needs…I just don’t think we can afford to wait till #11 or later to address this need with as much of a sure bet as all the “experts” have believed MHJ is and has been since last year’s draft analysis of this year’s draft. We are lucky to have him fall to us because of QB needy teams. The trade down offers on “possible” roster players is simply not worth it…IMO…when we already have enough draft picks to address the roster. Let’s not be pigs and miss out on a potential HOF pick. I say pick him…we can argue if he truly was “generational” later…after we enjoy his many Pro Bowl Career type years he has in Cardinal Red as opposed to Ohio State Red! 👍
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Post by Dry Heat on Mar 24, 2024 17:45:41 GMT -7
Odunze is just as tall, stronger, and much better at 50/50 balls on the outside. He’s also a dawg, whereas MHJ seems a bit shy. I still need to be convinced MHJ is in his own tier as “generational”. He’s an awesome WR prospect along with two or three others in this draft IMO so far. So…if you feel Odunza is more “generational” then MHJ…you take him at #4…but can you really be so sure that even someone like Odunza will be there in the later picks in round #1? To me…picking at #4…must be a player you’re as sure of as can be. QB’s are a crap shoot…positional players are less likely to be a total bust. MHJ…if not like FITZ or DHOP…is more then likely a sure bet NFL WR then any other on the board at #4…and fills a need our particular type of QB needs…I just don’t think we can afford to wait till #11 or later to address this need with as much of a sure bet as all the “experts” have believed MHJ is and has been since last year’s draft analysis of this year’s draft. We are lucky to have him fall to us because of QB needy teams. The trade down offers on “possible” roster players is simply not worth it…IMO…when we already have enough draft picks to address the roster. Let’s not be pigs and miss out on a potential HOF pick. I say pick him…we can argue if he truly was “generational” later…after we enjoy his many Pro Bowl Career type years he has in Cardinal Red as opposed to Ohio State Red! 👍 I’ll be quite happy with MHJ but I watch college ball and am not convinced he’s anything I’d call generational. Generational to me is a once every 20 year talent. My eye tells me he is great alongside several other WRs this year.
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Post by RedCards on Mar 24, 2024 18:14:07 GMT -7
I must agree . Tired of trading down for more pics passing off the super talent sort of speaking to good enough players to fill a position . Every time we score some real talent it feels like the rest of the team cant keep up . We lose a lot of talented players feeling like they have to carry the team . Keep the pick and keep building.
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Post by Redbirdfan62 on Mar 24, 2024 20:37:55 GMT -7
I’ve read numerous posts on this board about trading out of the #4 spot…but for what??? If it’s Minnesota…what amounts to swapping first round picks and picking up another late round first rounder? So now you have (3) firsts instead of (2). Is it worth just that? At #4 you can not only pick a generational talent at WR but repair a glaring need at a position that has been devoid of talent and someone KM desperately needs to throw to…A BIG WR with a HOF radius and superior route running ability…that many an expert have said is really the best pick in the draft. To me…unless you’re getting an extra #1 this year and an extra #1 next year…you don’t move the pick. No matter how talented a draft class is…there are far less guarantees the later in the round you pick. So…pick your player at #4…a player you need…a player your QB needs…who btw is on the small size…and move on to your other picks in your rebuild. But just picking up an extra #1 later in the round…and passing up on a more sure bet for just that extra #1 pick is not worth it…sweeten the pie with an extra #1 next year…and I’ll listen. But if not…IMO…I’m picking not only the best player in the draft…but the best WR in the class…and perhaps in a generation…this team has not been the same in the WR room without a FITZ or DHOP on the outside to throw 50/50 balls to…or who have the radius, route running ability and/or hands they had…nuff said. Odunze is just as tall, stronger, and much better at 50/50 balls on the outside. He’s also a dawg, whereas MHJ seems a bit shy. I still need to be convinced MHJ is in his own tier as “generational”. He’s an awesome WR prospect along with two or three others in this draft IMO so far. Posted a video of the Wr's being broken down.
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Post by somecardsfan on Mar 24, 2024 22:49:59 GMT -7
I must agree . Tired of trading down for more pics passing off the super talent sort of speaking to good enough players to fill a position . Every time we score some real talent it feels like the rest of the team cant keep up . We lose a lot of talented players feeling like they have to carry the team . Keep the pick and keep building. Tired of trading down? Monti did it one time. This team has so many holes and it's obvious they have decided to build through the draft based off off season signings. I don't mind trading down, cards need to fill a lot of holes
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Post by End Zone on Mar 25, 2024 7:00:15 GMT -7
I’ve read numerous posts on this board about trading out of the #4 spot…but for what??? If it’s Minnesota…what amounts to swapping first round picks and picking up another late round first rounder? So now you have (3) firsts instead of (2). Is it worth just that? At #4 you can not only pick a generational talent at WR but repair a glaring need at a position that has been devoid of talent and someone KM desperately needs to throw to…A BIG WR with a HOF radius and superior route running ability…that many an expert have said is really the best pick in the draft. To me…unless you’re getting an extra #1 this year and an extra #1 next year…you don’t move the pick. No matter how talented a draft class is…there are far less guarantees the later in the round you pick. So…pick your player at #4…a player you need…a player your QB needs…who btw is on the small size…and move on to your other picks in your rebuild. But just picking up an extra #1 later in the round…and passing up on a more sure bet for just that extra #1 pick is not worth it…sweeten the pie with an extra #1 next year…and I’ll listen. But if not…IMO…I’m picking not only the best player in the draft…but the best WR in the class…and perhaps in a generation…this team has not been the same in the WR room without a FITZ or DHOP on the outside to throw 50/50 balls to…or who have the radius, route running ability and/or hands they had…nuff said. Odunze is just as tall, stronger, and much better at 50/50 balls on the outside. He’s also a dawg, whereas MHJ seems a bit shy. I still need to be convinced MHJ is in his own tier as “generational”. He’s an awesome WR prospect along with two or three others in this draft IMO so far. I'm a fan of Odunze for more reasons than catch rate, hands, height, weight, 40 speed, etc. What about the fight in the dawg? I think he stands heads and shoulders as a competitor. He had the guts to show up at the Combine where he put on a show for everyone. How about the Combine no show? Harrison. Does MHJ have the mental strength to play for the Cardinals for the length of a rookie contract? If there is any question about MHJ's commitment to the struggle, then I'd pass on him and go to the next WR option. Not a lot of college players dream about playing for a Cardinals team that has struggled to break .500 each year since 1920. I think Odunze is a better fit for the Cardinals overall. Let Harrison go to the big media stage. That's what he wants anyway.
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Post by flash on Mar 25, 2024 7:26:34 GMT -7
Odunze is just as tall, stronger, and much better at 50/50 balls on the outside. He’s also a dawg, whereas MHJ seems a bit shy. I still need to be convinced MHJ is in his own tier as “generational”. He’s an awesome WR prospect along with two or three others in this draft IMO so far. So…if you feel Odunza is more “generational” then MHJ…you take him at #4…but can you really be so sure that even someone like Odunza will be there in the later picks in round #1? To me…picking at #4…must be a player you’re as sure of as can be. QB’s are a crap shoot…positional players are less likely to be a total bust. MHJ…if not like FITZ or DHOP…is more then likely a sure bet NFL WR then any other on the board at #4…and fills a need our particular type of QB needs…I just don’t think we can afford to wait till #11 or later to address this need with as much of a sure bet as all the “experts” have believed MHJ is and has been since last year’s draft analysis of this year’s draft. We are lucky to have him fall to us because of QB needy teams. The trade down offers on “possible” roster players is simply not worth it…IMO… when we already have enough draft picks to address the roster. Let’s not be pigs and miss out on a potential HOF pick. I say pick him…we can argue if he truly was “generational” later…after we enjoy his many Pro Bowl Career type years he has in Cardinal Red as opposed to Ohio State Red! 👍 100% Agree with you....
When it comes to Receiving Yards for our team last season(whether it be WR, TE or RB), our best player for Receiving yards was McBride.
He ranked 40th
Then Hollywood ranked 73rd Then Rondale ranked 131rst Then Dortch ranked 154th Then Zach Ertz ranked 205th
Do I need to continue? Hollywood, Rondale and Ertz are gone...where does that leave us?
If we trade down to the 11th or later pick, our chance to draft a top 10 WR will be much harder than if we stick at #4 and just take Marvin...
If you visit the source, click on the top of the column for yards and it will sort the players out...
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Post by Redbirdfan62 on Mar 25, 2024 7:44:05 GMT -7
Odunze is just as tall, stronger, and much better at 50/50 balls on the outside. He’s also a dawg, whereas MHJ seems a bit shy. I still need to be convinced MHJ is in his own tier as “generational”. He’s an awesome WR prospect along with two or three others in this draft IMO so far. I'm a fan of Odunze for more reasons than catch rate, hands, height, weight, 40 speed, etc. What about the fight in the dawg? I think he stands heads and shoulders as a competitor. He had the guts to show up at the Combine where he put on a show for everyone. How about the Combine no show? Harrison. Does MHJ have the mental strength to play for the Cardinals for the length of a rookie contract? If there is any question about MHJ's commitment to the struggle, then I'd pass on him and go to the next WR option. Not a lot of college players dream about playing for a Cardinals team that has struggled to break .500 each year since 1920. I think Odunze is a better fit for the Cardinals overall. Let Harrison go to the big media stage. That's what he wants anyway. Maybe this can help clear things somewhat.
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Post by ~MainEvent~ on Mar 25, 2024 8:00:00 GMT -7
Because fans have a dumb fascination w/ quantity over quality.
We really shouldn't even be in this position because CeeDee Lamb should already be our WR1 (like really don't get me started on this) but we took a LB or Safety or DE or DB or whatever he tried to play who this board loved who doesn't even have a team. Now the new Card fan move is taking the 3rd/4th best WR (FYI when teams know the Cards need a WR they'll 100% trade ahead of whoever you trade down w/) and tier 2/3 corner and linemen over just the WR1.
Almost like we didn't learn from last year.
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Post by CardsFanQC on Mar 25, 2024 8:53:06 GMT -7
For those Odunze fans -- here is an article I found from the NFL Combine (6.88 3-Cone is excellent for someone 6'3"): Odunze working hard at NFL Combine - Never SatisfiedJV podcast pointed out Matt Miller of ESPN says the Viking are "slobbering" over getting JJ McCarthy. Also the Giants are "extremely" interested in JJ McCarthy. BTW: I just heard Sean Payton (Coach of Broncos) at the NFL meetings in Orlando just stated "sure is good to be Monti from the Cardinals" when SP was asked about teams needing QB's. Jets traded up from #6 to #3 in 2018 to get Sam Darnold and gave the Colts - #6, #37, #49 and a 2019 2nd rounder. The NY Giants must be reminded of this trade because the Giants look at Drake Maye and JJ McCarthy pretty equally so for the Giants pick #4 is almost the same value as trading up to #3. B ased on the draft capital of the Darnold trade, it would appear Monti's MINIMUM trade with the Giants would garner #6 - #47 - #70 and a 2025 1st or 2nd rounder. At #6, Monti would be guaranteed to get either MHJ or Odunze as WR1. I then wonder if the Panthers would trade Derrick Brown to the Cardinals for #47 and the "extra" 2025 1st rounder from a trade with the NY Giants ?? It would appear Monti is going to get some attractive trade down offers from the Vikings, Giants and possibly the Broncos. Another thing working in Monti's favor is the 2025 QB draft class is considered to be far less attractive than the 2024 QB draft class.
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Post by devongent on Mar 25, 2024 10:34:51 GMT -7
For people who are concerned about Trading Down too far (as to #11 with Minnesota) the recent 4-Round mock posted by Chad Reuter (NFL.com) is worth a look through.
The Cardinals subsequently trade back up with the Falcons and take Odunze #8 followed by Latu #23 and Wiggins #27
Thereafter #35 Cooper Beebe (Guard), and then a RB in Round 3 (we only appear to have one pick here now) and a DT in the fourth-round.
I am not aware of the compensation for each trade, but for an 'illustration of the possibilities' such is not important. - Ossenfort pulled off a similar type transaction last year (#3 to #12 to #6) and you have got to think that if a similar opportunity arises again he will jump on it.
So, don't be surprised if Monti gets on his dancing shoes this time around and once more pull-offs his trademark 'One-Two Shuffle' on the Draft Ballroom dance floor.
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Post by CardSunsCard on Mar 25, 2024 11:49:34 GMT -7
I’ve read numerous posts on this board about trading out of the #4 spot…but for what??? If it’s Minnesota…what amounts to swapping first round picks and picking up another late round first rounder? So now you have (3) firsts instead of (2). Is it worth just that? At #4 you can not only pick a generational talent at WR but repair a glaring need at a position that has been devoid of talent and someone KM desperately needs to throw to…A BIG WR with a HOF radius and superior route running ability…that many an expert have said is really the best pick in the draft. To me…unless you’re getting an extra #1 this year and an extra #1 next year…you don’t move the pick. No matter how talented a draft class is…there are far less guarantees the later in the round you pick. So…pick your player at #4…a player you need…a player your QB needs…who btw is on the small size…and move on to your other picks in your rebuild. But just picking up an extra #1 later in the round…and passing up on a more sure bet for just that extra #1 pick is not worth it…sweeten the pie with an extra #1 next year…and I’ll listen. But if not…IMO…I’m picking not only the best player in the draft…but the best WR in the class…and perhaps in a generation…this team has not been the same in the WR room without a FITZ or DHOP on the outside to throw 50/50 balls to…or who have the radius, route running ability and/or hands they had…nuff said. We've talked a lot about trading down but I don't think most of us that want to want to trade down to 11 and stay there. Also, if we trade with Minn we would get more than just picks 11 and 23. I know I've opined that we should do what we did last year. Trade down, acquire extra picks, then trade back UP for the guys we want. Why? 1. MHJ is great but he's not Fitz/Megatron great. So let's not call him generational. Generational guys are once in a decade types..... like Bowers. And Bowers is the only guy in this entire draft that's a once in a decade type player - at his position. Unless you think the QBs are. Not a single other player comps as generational. That's a fact. If MHJ was heads and shoulders above Odunze/Nabors and there was no debate about it I think more of us would say stay put. 2. We have a ton of needs. If we trade down, then back up, we 'might' be able to fix our team a year earlier than scheduled. Trading down gives us that opportunity. If you trust Monti. Right now, he's the first guy in a long time I think most of us trust. I've stated for awhile that spots 3 or 4 are too high for MHJ. And if we can trade/stay within the 5-8 range, we still have a shot at what I believe are 2-3 guys we want. So if you have 3 guys you really like, then you absolutely trade down, so long as you have another deal locked in to trade back up. I'm not sold that Alt is generational either, but if we trade back up to say 8 or 9, we are at worst going to get Odunze or Alt plus extra picks. And Odunze has just as much a chance of being great as MHJ does. I don't believe there's a single board member against taking MHJ. (Which is rare for this board) Where we all disagree is what his value is. And outside of Megatron and Jerry Rice, I don't know that there were any WRs in history that deserved being taken in the top 3 or 4 picks. We can all debate that until the wheels fall of, but even Fitz wasn't worth a top 3/4 pick. Here's some reference points: www.nfl.com/prospects/marvin-harrison-jr./32004841-5264-8677-2fca-6edc0b245f94When Larry came out, he was 10 pounds heavier than MHJ and his prospect score was 99. ( graded about 7.4 if I recall) MHJ's scores at 97 (grade at 6.83 as you see from NFL.com link above) To be considered generational, you've got to be in the 98+ score range. Bowers was the only guy in this entire draft that rated that high - before his injury. Even AFTER his injury, his scores are still almost equal to MHJ. There is a huge gap between Fitzgerald or Megatron's grades and the grade of MHJ. I'll give you another example of generational. Look at Saqon Barkley's draft grade of 7.45www.nfl.com/prospects/saquon-barkley/32004241-5219-2674-af43-1519254e563dMHJ could end up being as good as others, but people need to stop tossing around the generational term because according to ratings, he is NOT that. He's not even in the same ballpark as players seen as truly generational. To be considered generational, you've got to grade out above 7.35 and MHJ isn't anywhere close to that. Analysts aren't always right with their ratings. For example, Justin Jefferson rated 6.43 and Ceedee rated 6.81, so they were wrong about Jefferson but probably right about Ceedee Lamb. But if Ceedee and MHJ grade as about equal, ask yourself, would you have drafted Ceedee at #4 in a draft that's loaded with highly graded WRs? I sure as heck wouldn't. Odunze's grade is 6.71 and Nabors is 6.86 (higher than MHJ). Both of these are in the ballpark of MHJ so while analysts could be wrong, the lack of a large gap proves MHJ isn't seen as truly generational. Not when Nabors grades out better.
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