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Post by FLCardinalFan on Apr 22, 2024 15:47:23 GMT -7
JOSH SCOBEY ( Parted Ways)Our Scouting department is a big area of concern to me. Most all are retreads from Keim's regime and even Rod Graves era. This shows in our poor drafts. I hope Monti has educated the staff I know we have a new GM and all, But these are the same guys who have been with the team for many years, T hey are old regime guys from the past. The team did not upgrade the talent here IMHJO.
Scroll down for the scouting department
www.azcardinals.com/team/front-office-roster/
Here is the record of the Scout who is directing all of this Josh Scobey former Cardinal player He has been in the Scouting department for 12 years In 2022 he was promoted to director of college scouting. In 2019 -2021 Scobey was the Western regional Scout, I 'm not sure where his territory ends but he He would have scouted CB Byron Murphy from Washington Hakeem Butler WR Iowa I dont think so but its possible
2020 Same Role Western Regional Scout Keesean Johnson WR Fresno St. Lekhi Fotu DT Utah Evan Weaver LB California
2021 Western Regional Scout Only one player from anywhere close to the West is Zaven Collins from Tulsa. I doubt he would have scouted Collins
What I am getting at is that none of these players Scobey was responsible for analyzing turned out to be any good but yet they promoted him.
Why?
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Post by Redbirdfan62 on Apr 22, 2024 15:53:33 GMT -7
Our Scouting department is a big area of concern to me. Most all are retreads from Keim's regime and even Rod Graves era. This shows in our poor drafts. I hope Monti has educated the staff I know we have a new GM and all, But these are the same guys who have been with the team for many years, T hey are old regime guys from the past. The team did not upgrade the talent here IMHJO.
Scroll down for the scouting department
www.azcardinals.com/team/front-office-roster/
Here is the record of the Scout who is directing all of this Josh Scobey former Cardinal player He has been in the Scouting department for 12 years In 2022 he was promoted to director of college scouting. In 2019 -2021 Scobey was the Western regional Scout, I 'm not sure where his territory ends but he He would have scouted CB Byron Murphy from Washington Hakeem Butler WR Iowa I dont think so but its possible
2020 Same Role Western Regional Scout Keesean Johnson WR Fresno St. Lekhi Fotu DT Utah Evan Weaver LB California
2021 Western Regional Scout Only one player from anywhere close to the West is Zaven Collins from Tulsa. I doubt he would have scouted Collins
What I am getting at is that none of these players Scobey was responsible for analyzing turned out to be any good but yet they promoted him.
Why?
Good catch let's pass on a blue chipper trade back and get more picks.
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Post by Chirpn’time on Apr 22, 2024 16:05:12 GMT -7
Our Scouting department is a big area of concern to me. Most all are retreads from Keim's regime and even Rod Graves era. This shows in our poor drafts. I hope Monti has educated the staff I know we have a new GM and all, But these are the same guys who have been with the team for many years, T hey are old regime guys from the past. The team did not upgrade the talent here IMHJO.
Scroll down for the scouting department
www.azcardinals.com/team/front-office-roster/
Here is the record of the Scout who is directing all of this Josh Scobey former Cardinal player He has been in the Scouting department for 12 years In 2022 he was promoted to director of college scouting. In 2019 -2021 Scobey was the Western regional Scout, I 'm not sure where his territory ends but he He would have scouted CB Byron Murphy from Washington Hakeem Butler WR Iowa I dont think so but its possible
2020 Same Role Western Regional Scout Keesean Johnson WR Fresno St. Lekhi Fotu DT Utah Evan Weaver LB California
2021 Western Regional Scout Only one player from anywhere close to the West is Zaven Collins from Tulsa. I doubt he would have scouted Collins
What I am getting at is that none of these players Scobey was responsible for analyzing turned out to be any good but yet they promoted him.
Why?
I appreciate what you have noticed. Two things may work in the Cards favor are Monti’s knowledge and JG giving better feedback on detailed expectations or roles for prospects. The assistant to Monti from the Lions is also a positive influence on projecting prospects. The scouting may not have been the issue…if GM and HC are a hot mess.
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Post by CardCore on Apr 22, 2024 16:14:25 GMT -7
Our Scouting department is a big area of concern to me. Most all are retreads from Keim's regime and even Rod Graves era. This shows in our poor drafts. I hope Monti has educated the staff I know we have a new GM and all, But these are the same guys who have been with the team for many years, T hey are old regime guys from the past. The team did not upgrade the talent here IMHJO.
Scroll down for the scouting department
www.azcardinals.com/team/front-office-roster/
Here is the record of the Scout who is directing all of this Josh Scobey former Cardinal player He has been in the Scouting department for 12 years In 2022 he was promoted to director of college scouting. In 2019 -2021 Scobey was the Western regional Scout, I 'm not sure where his territory ends but he He would have scouted CB Byron Murphy from Washington Hakeem Butler WR Iowa I dont think so but its possible
2020 Same Role Western Regional Scout Keesean Johnson WR Fresno St. Lekhi Fotu DT Utah Evan Weaver LB California
2021 Western Regional Scout Only one player from anywhere close to the West is Zaven Collins from Tulsa. I doubt he would have scouted Collins
What I am getting at is that none of these players Scobey was responsible for analyzing turned out to be any good but yet they promoted him.
Why?
It's pretty doubtful Scobey scouted Hakeem Butler or Zaven Collins. Evan Weaver? You're casting shade on Scobey over a 7th round pick? Even Fotu was a 4th rounder and managed to play all the years since he was drafted. Keesean Johnson was a later round pick as well if I remember correctly. I trust Monti. If Scobey is not good at evaluating talent I think he will be gone soon.
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Post by ~MainEvent~ on Apr 22, 2024 18:28:59 GMT -7
People don't care about this enormous elephant in the room man they just think more picks = greater odds to get a better player
We're a bottom 3 team in evaluating talent and fans want to trade down to move further away from blue chip prospects on a team that lacks talent to get like the 3rd/4th best players at a position. It's flat out comical
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Post by Dry Heat on Apr 22, 2024 19:03:48 GMT -7
People don't care about this enormous elephant in the room man they just think more picks = greater odds to get a better player We're a bottom 3 team in evaluating talent and fans want to trade down to move further away from blue chip prospects on a team that lacks talent to get like the 3rd/4th best players at a position. It's flat out comical Respect the opinion but when you’re a 3 and 4 win team the past two years, you’re a lot more than one player away. Three first rounders instead of all the eggs in the basket of MHJ could reasonably be a wiser move. Also, do you think we were bottom 3 in evaluating talent last year? Were the teams Monti had a big part in player evaluation bad in evaluation? Cuz he is captain of that ship now, not Keim. And some of our top player evaluation guys were fired this off-season.
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Post by FLCardinalFan on Apr 23, 2024 1:19:33 GMT -7
People don't care about this enormous elephant in the room man they just think more picks = greater odds to get a better player We're a bottom 3 team in evaluating talent and fans want to trade down to move further away from blue chip prospects on a team that lacks talent to get like the 3rd/4th best players at a position. It's flat out comical Suffice to say You get it. Monti did not have a great draft last season like many think he did Will Anderson was there and not picked ( we were the worst pass rush team in the NFL last year Sam Laporta is possibly better than Trey McBride at Tight End and he was a rookie. I dont know why they didnt clean house in the scouting department All these scouts are Keim's guys.
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Post by End Zone on Apr 23, 2024 2:12:49 GMT -7
Good morning, fellas. I'm not going to object to Forum members victimizing the men and women of the Scouting Department. Every Cardinals team employee is accountable. These men and women have one of the most difficult team jobs...evaluating player behaviors and prioritizing what they learned about the players. Then, they provide raw data and experienced views into a bigger process called Analytics.
I recommend members review the YouTube video of Gannon and Ossenfort from last weekend. I think the YT piece was posted sometime on Saturday. In that YT video, Ossenfort thanks people who worked hard for weeks and months to get the HC and GM up to speed for the Draft beginning on Thursday night. A key takeaway from the many 'Thanks' sent by the GM was a reference to the Analytics Department having a major role in evaluating player talent for the Draft.
So, the next time we jump on the Scouting Department for hyped player who didn't work out on the field of play, remember that these people feed their NCAAF data into the Analytics Department process. It's a formula (AI e.g., algorithm?) run by humans that spits out the best players' names and is the cornerstone of the Draft board.
Fire every member of the Scouting Department. The Draft result likely will be unchanged. Blame "Hal."
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Post by CardsFanQC on Apr 23, 2024 3:03:39 GMT -7
Good morning, fellas. I'm not going to object to Forum members victimizing the men and women of the Scouting Department. Every Cardinals team employee is accountable. These men and women have one of the most difficult team jobs...evaluating player behaviors and prioritizing what they learned about the players. Then, they provide raw data and experienced views into a bigger process called Analytics. I recommend members review the YouTube video of Gannon and Ossenfort from last weekend. I think the YT piece was posted sometime on Saturday. In that YT video, Ossenfort thanks people who worked hard for weeks and months to get the HC and GM up to speed for the Draft beginning on Thursday night. A key takeaway from the many 'Thanks' sent by the GM was a reference to the Analytics Department having a major role in evaluating player talent for the Draft. So, the next time we jump on the Scouting Department for hyped player who didn't work out on the field of play, remember that these people feed their NCAAF data into the Analytics Department process. It's a formula (AI e.g., algorithm?) run by humans that spits out the best players' names and is the cornerstone of the Draft board. Fire every member of the Scouting Department. The Draft result likely will be unchanged. Blame "Hal." Good catch on the ANALYTICS DEPARTMENT reference - Many of the top draft evaluators have a range of measurable for EACH position because Monti believes there is a "type" who can succeed in the NFL at a given position. I think their reliance on analytics/maybe AI to eliminate players from consideration who are not the right "type" is important so scouts/staff can concentrate on the remaining players who then must also fit into JG's mental & character "type." You can bet the players brought in for the Top 30 visits were already screened by the analytics and were brought in to learn more about the player's personality and mental approach to football. IF SK had been using analytics, he would never have drafted Reddick in Rd. #1 to play a position he had never played before.
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Post by jeffcardinalfan on Apr 23, 2024 3:57:18 GMT -7
There's a lot to unpack here. First of all I want to say that hindsight is 20/20. Everyone has their own opinion but I didn't see many comments with proposed solutions. Here's mine
Hire 50 more scouts. Why? Unless it's against some type of League rule I would want as many as as possible looking at players. I would also want scouts to look at even more players from small schools and even more unheralded players at larger universities. It is often the players of these types that make or break a team's roster.
Secondly, I fully agree with using analytics but only as a additional tool and not as the final say so. Why?
Analytics cannot tell you what's inside a prospect's mind. Quick baseball-if moneyball was 100% accurate the Oakland A's would have won 10 world series championships in a row.
Third, if there's not already there should be half a dozen psychologists on the payroll and much more emphasis should be placed on evaluating a player's attitude and desire. Of course prospects still have to have a minimum of level of athletic ability to even be considered.
It is certainly understandable why NFL teams do not spend a lot of man hours in evaluating prospects in the later rounds but why not? If there's not a rule against it then why not? When it comes to first and second round picks the success rate of these so-called blue chippers is nowhere near 100%. For every JC Stroud there's a Ryan leaf. So in my humble opinion it would be even more critical we're all around draft picks for an organization to spend as much time as possible watching film and interacting with the prospect to gauge their head.
They're going to throw a few examples out there that I personally observed. My high school did not have football, only baseball and basketball. We had a guy on the basketball team who was considered one of our stars. Scouts came to look at him. He was 100% a me first guy over the team. Any game in which we were losing he started costing. There was normal for him to make a statement such as this at halftime in the locker room I don't care if we win the game at all as long as I get my 20 points.
Another one was a guy who was a five tool player in baseball. He could hit, hit for power, excellent fielder, great arm and very fast. His issue wasn't he was very lazy and did not care at all if the team won as long as he looks good. Our basketball team was much much better than our baseball team so I got to observe his behavior much more often under adverse conditions. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that in games we were losing badly in that he would strike out on purpose to help end the game quicker so he could go home. As a fielder the higher leverage situation it was the worst he became. He should have been the last player on the team to be positioned in the batting order where the team success depended upon his performance.
My point is an analytics would not have revealed these huge character flaws and a 30-minute interview with a culture of scout more than likely would not have revealed these issues either.
Now what does all this mean in regards to the upcoming draft this year.
Scenario number one Cardinals draft Harrison Jr at spot number 4 and they take the best player available according to the analytics and the scouting department opinions etc etc
Scenario number two The Cardinals trade out of spot number for, possibly trade backup to five six or seven to still get one of the top three wide receivers and end up with a couple of extra fairly high draft picks.
There's literally no way to predict the outcome of either scenario 100%. In scenario number one Harrison could be a superstar or it could be a bust because it is possible.
Same as scenario number two, one of the other wide receivers might be just as good or not nearly as good as Harrison projects to be. The additional draft picks could yield players who will be solid starters and maybe even all pros for years to come for the cardinals. They also could all fail miserably.
As a GM you have to consider all possibilities and consider all the risk involved in these possibilities and the rewards involved in each of the possibilities and then make the call.
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Post by End Zone on Apr 23, 2024 5:11:41 GMT -7
There's a lot to unpack here. First of all I want to say that hindsight is 20/20. Everyone has their own opinion but I didn't see many comments with proposed solutions. Here's mine Hire 50 more scouts. Why? Unless it's against some type of League rule I would want as many as as possible looking at players. I would also want scouts to look at even more players from small schools and even more unheralded players at larger universities. It is often the players of these types that make or break a team's roster. Secondly, I fully agree with using analytics but only as a additional tool and not as the final say so. Why? Analytics cannot tell you what's inside a prospect's mind. Quick baseball-if moneyball was 100% accurate the Oakland A's would have won 10 world series championships in a row. Third, if there's not already there should be half a dozen psychologists on the payroll and much more emphasis should be placed on evaluating a player's attitude and desire. Of course prospects still have to have a minimum of level of athletic ability to even be considered. It is certainly understandable why NFL teams do not spend a lot of man hours in evaluating prospects in the later rounds but why not? If there's not a rule against it then why not? When it comes to first and second round picks the success rate of these so-called blue chippers is nowhere near 100%. For every JC Stroud there's a Ryan leaf. So in my humble opinion it would be even more critical we're all around draft picks for an organization to spend as much time as possible watching film and interacting with the prospect to gauge their head. They're going to throw a few examples out there that I personally observed. My high school did not have football, only baseball and basketball. We had a guy on the basketball team who was considered one of our stars. Scouts came to look at him. He was 100% a me first guy over the team. Any game in which we were losing he started costing. There was normal for him to make a statement such as this at halftime in the locker room I don't care if we win the game at all as long as I get my 20 points. Another one was a guy who was a five tool player in baseball. He could hit, hit for power, excellent fielder, great arm and very fast. His issue wasn't he was very lazy and did not care at all if the team won as long as he looks good. Our basketball team was much much better than our baseball team so I got to observe his behavior much more often under adverse conditions. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that in games we were losing badly in that he would strike out on purpose to help end the game quicker so he could go home. As a fielder the higher leverage situation it was the worst he became. He should have been the last player on the team to be positioned in the batting order where the team success depended upon his performance. My point is an analytics would not have revealed these huge character flaws and a 30-minute interview with a culture of scout more than likely would not have revealed these issues either. Now what does all this mean in regards to the upcoming draft this year. Scenario number one Cardinals draft Harrison Jr at spot number 4 and they take the best player available according to the analytics and the scouting department opinions etc etc Scenario number two The Cardinals trade out of spot number for, possibly trade backup to five six or seven to still get one of the top three wide receivers and end up with a couple of extra fairly high draft picks. There's literally no way to predict the outcome of either scenario 100%. In scenario number one Harrison could be a superstar or it could be a bust because it is possible. Same as scenario number two, one of the other wide receivers might be just as good or not nearly as good as Harrison projects to be. The additional draft picks could yield players who will be solid starters and maybe even all pros for years to come for the cardinals. They also could all fail miserably. As a GM you have to consider all possibilities and consider all the risk involved in these possibilities and the rewards involved in each of the possibilities and then make the call. Good discussion! I mentioned the value of Analytics because some members might think the Cardinals Scouting process is barely changed since 1920. Looking at the 103-year W/L record, I can see where someone might say that data is proof of an entrenched process. Ossenfort made clear that he's using Analytics to evaluate all players in 2024. Your points are spot on. Analytics is part of the Drafting process. By no means would I allow AI make the final call on who is the #1 pick Thursday night. Player behavior and attitude are revealed in many ways. I believe Ossenfort knows how to peel back the layers of the onion and find out what motivates a player. If "team" comes first for the player, other players will know it. Ossenfort only needs to ask around to find out if the player is truthful about himself. A "me" first player is okay for golf, bowling, and tennis, but not NFL football, MLB baseball, and NBA basketball. A rookie is always an unknown until he puts on pads and a helmet. Most of the players that get selected are "team" focused. A few "me" guys get by the screening process because they are so gifted athletically that a HC is willing to eat the massive butt pain. I don't know of a single HC that has figured out how to motivate the "me" player to become a "team" player. Future HOF HC Belicheck couldn't do it. HC Gannon won't waste his time on that type player.
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Post by somecardsfan on Apr 23, 2024 6:11:58 GMT -7
People don't care about this enormous elephant in the room man they just think more picks = greater odds to get a better player We're a bottom 3 team in evaluating talent and fans want to trade down to move further away from blue chip prospects on a team that lacks talent to get like the 3rd/4th best players at a position. It's flat out comical New regime, 1 draft, already complaining about how bad they are at evaluating talent. Having more picks means more darts and more chances of hitting the bullseye. Last regime sucked at drafting because they rather trade draft assets for mediocre players like Hollywood Brown and pray their 1 year deal with over the hill players may work. Then pick small fast players in the later round, which did not work at all. New regime spent last off season shedding bad contracts and trying to field a team, not a competitive team, but a team to get through the season. What we saw was rookies getting playing time and no rush to be a mediocre team. They seem to rather want to take the long road to success, something this organization has frankly never done. The Cardinals want to build through the draft, finally... They spent this off season signing players who can actually stay healthy. They didnt go out and try to over pay for one player. They got a bunch of blue collar players to help with depth. In a couple of more years this team should have a solid core and start looking like a few players away from being really good. That is when they start using the money they been shedding to go get those high end players in FA.
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Post by FLCardinalFan on Apr 23, 2024 7:06:40 GMT -7
People don't care about this enormous elephant in the room man they just think more picks = greater odds to get a better player We're a bottom 3 team in evaluating talent and fans want to trade down to move further away from blue chip prospects on a team that lacks talent to get like the 3rd/4th best players at a position. It's flat out comical New regime, 1 draft, already complaining about how bad they are at evaluating talent. Having more picks means more darts and more chances of hitting the bullseye. Last regime sucked at drafting because they rather trade draft assets for mediocre players like Hollywood Brown and pray their 1 year deal with over the hill players may work. Then pick small fast players in the later round, which did not work at all. New regime spent last off season shedding bad contracts and trying to field a team, not a competitive team, but a team to get through the season. What we saw was rookies getting playing time and no rush to be a mediocre team. They seem to rather want to take the long road to success, something this organization has frankly never done. The Cardinals want to build through the draft, finally... They spent this off season signing players who can actually stay healthy. They didnt go out and try to over pay for one player. They got a bunch of blue collar players to help with depth. In a couple of more years this team should have a solid core and start looking like a few players away from being really good. That is when they start using the money they been shedding to go get those high end players in FA. I think you might be missing Main's point. Its not the new regime, But look at all the scouts and how long they have been in the organization. Most are Keim regime guys. The guys out in the field are still the same old crew. That was my point in bringing this up. these guys are in the schools trenches finding talent but they missed a lot draft after draft. To your point, you can have lots of darts for more picks, But if you need glasses to win the tournament you better go buy them. Main knows his stuff and I don't side with him all the time but he is right. I'm not bashing Monti but last year's draft was not the gem many think it was. Wil Anderson should have been the pick, Sam Laporta the 2nd. Houston and Detroit did wel in their trades with us. PFF ratings bare that out.
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Post by flash on Apr 23, 2024 7:28:12 GMT -7
People don't care about this enormous elephant in the room man they just think more picks = greater odds to get a better player We're a bottom 3 team in evaluating talent and fans want to trade down to move further away from blue chip prospects on a team that lacks talent to get like the 3rd/4th best players at a position. It's flat out comical Suffice to say You get it. Monti did not have a great draft last season like many think he did
Will Anderson was there and not picked ( we were the worst pass rush team in the NFL last year Sam Laporta is possibly better than Trey McBride at Tight End and he was a rookie. I dont know why they didnt clean house in the scouting department All these scouts are Keim's guys. Hello FL...
I put together how our draft picks from last year turned out. I didn't have a chance to post it yet. I will do so when I get home this afternoon.
Maybe some on here will have a different perspective on how Monti's first draft turned out with stats and facts that contributed to our 4 win season.
It was not a good draft for him regardless of what some may think on here...
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Post by redbirdwatcher on Apr 23, 2024 8:28:11 GMT -7
Our Scouting department is a big area of concern to me. Most all are retreads from Keim's regime and even Rod Graves era. This shows in our poor drafts. I hope Monti has educated the staff I know we have a new GM and all, But these are the same guys who have been with the team for many years, They are old regime guys from the past. The team did not upgrade the talent here IMHJO.Scroll down for the scouting department www.azcardinals.com/team/front-office-roster/Here is the record of the Scout who is directing all of this Josh Scobey former Cardinal player He has been in the Scouting department for 12 years In 2022 he was promoted to director of college scouting. In 2019 -2021 Scobey was the Western regional Scout, I 'm not sure where his territory ends but he He would have scouted CB Byron Murphy from Washington Hakeem Butler WR Iowa I dont think so but its possible 2020 Same Role Western Regional Scout Keesean Johnson WR Fresno St. Lekhi Fotu DT Utah Evan Weaver LB California 2021 Western Regional Scout Only one player from anywhere close to the West is Zaven Collins from Tulsa. I doubt he would have scouted Collins
What I am getting at is that none of these players Scobey was responsible for analyzing turned out to be any good but yet they promoted him.
Why?
Easier to promote than fire?
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