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Post by cardinalsins on Apr 24, 2024 7:31:14 GMT -7
Not apples to apples...but it's interesting to see that OL players tend to hit more in the first round...but we obviously invest more than other teams in that area. Thus...we were either bad at drafting these guys...or we didn't develop them. Im am oversimplifyimg here since this is not a perfect correlation obviously...but its interesting.
Hopefully Monti is better in this regard.
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Post by End Zone on Apr 24, 2024 7:58:02 GMT -7
Not apples to apples...but it's interesting to see that OL players tend to hit more in the first round...but we obviously invest more than other teams in that area. Thus...we were either bad at drafting these guys...or we didn't develop them. Im am oversimplifyimg here since this is not a perfect correlation obviously...but its interesting. Hopefully Monti is better in this regard. This is an interesting data set. I can't really draw any conclusions from it, for example, that SB winners (2019-2023) did better at drafting OLinemen who stuck around for a second contract. It's too early to toot a horn. The Cardinals 5-year data seems low overall compared to the other 31 teams. The 2023 pick (Johnson) skewed the 5-year data raising the Cardinals to the middle of the pack at 51.3%. The Ossenfort #1 pick in 2023 was a must-do. He won't pick an OLineman at #1 in 2024. But I expect Ossenfort to make an investment on day 2.
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Post by flash on Apr 24, 2024 12:13:11 GMT -7
Coaching regimes takes time to fully develop...
Did Houston have a new Coaching Staff? Yes they did. Just like us.
_______________________________________________
You mention that Rookies have slow starts:
Houston's Will Anderson won Defensive Rookie of the year. No slow start there...
______________________________________________________
You mention that we had a bunch of very mediocre vets and only a small handful of proven vets:
Houston only won 3 games in 2022. Do you think they had what you mentioned at that time? So did that carry over to 2023? We had one more win than them in 2022. But yet we end up with 4 wins in 2023 and they end up with 10 wins and a playoff run. Don't you think that in 2022 we too had a bunch of very mediocre vets and only a small handful of proven vets? I think that our 2022 win records would imply the same thing. ____________________________________________________
You also mention: Put a rookie on a team that's well stocked along with a well-oiled coaching staff that has had time to congeal...well it's much easier.
It seems that Houston and us did not have what you mentioned last season? Oops...I am wrong...Houston figured it out, we did not...Houston did not need a well stocked and well-oiled coaching staff to make a playoff run...
So honestly, do you still think the glass is half full?
My concern is that I think Monti and J.G. could have done much better in the draft last season. From my perspective...it was a huge mistake to trade down. And I feel the same way about this draft too...
I got to admit, you make a decent argument for your point of view. Thats what's great about this forum. I will even admit my opinions are always tainted by my homerism. I always want to see the glass half full. Still, while few draft years is perfect for any team, I feel good about last year. I don't think anybody thought Huston would have the year that they did....yet they did...so kudos to them, they out did us this time. Our draft last year may not be monumental, but I think it was solid especially when you compare it to other years. I bet dimes to dollars, most of those guys will be here even next year. Let's not forget, our #1 QB didn't play until the later in the year. Thats when Michael Wilson started to look like someone not to mention Greg Dortch....and...Trey Mcbride. A second year guy that went from nothing to almost all pro. Just further evidence that it may take a year or two. Maybe Huston out did us last year, but I'm pleased with what we have done. I appreciate your opinion as I do most here. It's always fun to see who is ultimately right. I hope I am in this case....lol. Peace my friend I don't agree with that...you always support your opinion very well. It wasn't that easy to rebuttal you...ha ha ha... All is good THOMAS CAT...great post even if I don't agree...ha ha ha
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Post by flash on Apr 24, 2024 15:17:03 GMT -7
While I think what you said about each player is fair....facts are facts. However, there may be a different way at looking at these facts. Sure no one really shined, but rookies often have slow starts. While there are always exceptions, most don't start to shine until year 2 or even three. It's too soon to give them a true evaluation. The fact that they are all still on the team ( at least I think they are ) says something. But my main point is this. We had a complete coaching change. New coaching regimes takes time to fully develop. Then we had more rookies playing than pretty much any other team. Other than rookies, we had a bunch of very mediocre vets and only a small handful of proven vets. Taking in these considerations, it hard for a rookie to shine. Put a rookie on a team that's well stocked along with a well-oiled coaching staff that has had time to congeal...well it's much easier. Reading what you posted, I see a glass half full....not half empty. Still, it was a well-researched post and I thank you for that, I just came to a different conclusion.... I fall in close to Thomas Cat and very much appreciate Flash and his deep dive on this and many other things...I also agree with Flash's previous thinking of the importance a good CB in the 2024 draft...Green from FSU and Hadden from Tenn. also the CB from South Dakota are good fits in JG's defense. On the thought of Anderson over Paris...not in agreement. Paris played more snaps and even changed his technique mid season and did not miss a beat. Texans had a healthy QB #1 and Cards had a healthy QB #1 8 games. Anderson had better IDL support and better defenders around him...so I would expect better results from him....Will Anderson would do little to protect K1's health and Paris is a solid addition to protect K1's health. Monti also picked three players with health issues (BJ, Wilson and Williams) plus Gaines had an injury before the season started...this doesn't mean they were bad picks. Paris and Stills had solid rookie seasons as well as picking up TE Higgins, S Chachere, CB S. Thomas and IDL Stilles more or less UNFA rookies and Pappoe was slow to get going, but seemed to improve in the last 4 games. CB Clarke had a couple good games before being disciplined. The total amount of players of low value before the season who played significant number of snaps was impressive. Plus the actual making AZ relevant as per a team players respected and in 2024...a place good players would want to be part of what is happening...the respect of the coaches and Monti that was gained by everyone involved in the NFL speaks volumes on the transition that happened in 2023...despite having what many consider a talent heavy roster. No excuses by the new staff and holding everyone accountable. I put little value on what other teams are doing with their draft choices. I am concerned about what AZ is doing. It was great to see how positive the players are in the first team activities in 2024...they want to accomplish great things and are eager to get going...that is not a usual movement in recent AZ history. I really like the defenders picked up in FA this year...4 big additions and not old players. Their attitude is contagious and I look forward to as fast start in 2024. Chirp, I realize that them being injured does not mean they were a bad pick...I will give each of them another couple of years to pan out. I just wonder why Monti did not select players with no injury history. A player no matter how good he is...does not matter if he doesn't take the field..
Good post by the way....
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Post by Chirpn’time on Apr 24, 2024 18:39:00 GMT -7
I fall in close to Thomas Cat and very much appreciate Flash and his deep dive on this and many other things...I also agree with Flash's previous thinking of the importance a good CB in the 2024 draft...Green from FSU and Hadden from Tenn. also the CB from South Dakota are good fits in JG's defense. On the thought of Anderson over Paris...not in agreement. Paris played more snaps and even changed his technique mid season and did not miss a beat. Texans had a healthy QB #1 and Cards had a healthy QB #1 8 games. Anderson had better IDL support and better defenders around him...so I would expect better results from him....Will Anderson would do little to protect K1's health and Paris is a solid addition to protect K1's health. Monti also picked three players with health issues (BJ, Wilson and Williams) plus Gaines had an injury before the season started...this doesn't mean they were bad picks. Paris and Stills had solid rookie seasons as well as picking up TE Higgins, S Chachere, CB S. Thomas and IDL Stilles more or less UNFA rookies and Pappoe was slow to get going, but seemed to improve in the last 4 games. CB Clarke had a couple good games before being disciplined. The total amount of players of low value before the season who played significant number of snaps was impressive. Plus the actual making AZ relevant as per a team players respected and in 2024...a place good players would want to be part of what is happening...the respect of the coaches and Monti that was gained by everyone involved in the NFL speaks volumes on the transition that happened in 2023...despite having what many consider a talent heavy roster. No excuses by the new staff and holding everyone accountable. I put little value on what other teams are doing with their draft choices. I am concerned about what AZ is doing. It was great to see how positive the players are in the first team activities in 2024...they want to accomplish great things and are eager to get going...that is not a usual movement in recent AZ history. I really like the defenders picked up in FA this year...4 big additions and not old players. Their attitude is contagious and I look forward to as fast start in 2024. Chirp, I realize that them being injured does not mean they were a bad pick...I will give each of them another couple of years to pan out. I just wonder why Monti did not select players with no injury history. A player no matter how good he is...does not matter if he doesn't take the field..
Good post by the way....
Nothing but respect for you Flash, I always enjoy your thought process and not always toeing the popular line. From my POV, Monti was gambling and attempting to get the best bang for the buck in a two year plus projection in 2023 draft. Knowing if the medicals became a long term issue he could pick up FAs and draft replacements in 2024 and 2025. I would also think the 2024 draft the way the team played in last 4 games and K1 playing well, this is the year to get as many now players with a mix of some projects long term. Monti will need to be blown away with a no brainier trade to come off MHJ. the next 2-3 picks are wild cards for him...we will see his acumen in the 2nd and 3rd picks. Very well may be CB and edge if his guys are available. IDL, OL and 2nd WR may be put into 3rd round and lower. I would not be surprised to see 2 WRs in 1st round and a CB...all depends on what happens...I honestly think a stick and pick with MHJ a CB and WR BTJ or MHJ, BTJ and Latu could be the first three picks. I do think offense is of greater value currently...picking two WRs in the first is an issue in five years as far as resigning both, but man twin towers with Conner and McBride...that is a nightmare for defenses and K1 can be the point guard distributing the ball all over and quickly.
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Post by flash on Apr 24, 2024 18:49:54 GMT -7
Chirp, I realize that them being injured does not mean they were a bad pick...I will give each of them another couple of years to pan out. I just wonder why Monti did not select players with no injury history. A player no matter how good he is...does not matter if he doesn't take the field..
Good post by the way....
Nothing but respect for you Flash, I always enjoy your thought process and not always toeing the popular line. From my POV, Monti was gambling and attempting to get the best bang for the buck in a two year plus projection in 2023 draft. Knowing if the medicals became a long term issue he could pick up FAs and draft replacements in 2024 and 2025. I would also think the 2024 draft the way the team played in last 4 games and K1 playing well, this is the year to get as many now players with a mix of some projects long term. Monti will need to be blown away with a no brainier trade to come off MHJ. the next 2-3 picks are wild cards for him...we will see his acumen in the 2nd and 3rd picks. Very well may be CB and edge if his guys are available. IDL, OL and 2nd WR may be put into 3rd round and lower. I would not be surprised to see 2 WRs in 1st round and a CB...all depends on what happens... I honestly think a stick and pick with MHJ a CB and WR BTJ or MHJ, BTJ and Latu could be the first three picks. I do think offense is of greater value currently...picking two WRs in the first is an issue in five years as far as resigning both, but man twin towers with Conner and McBride...that is a nightmare for defenses and K1 can be the point guard distributing the ball all over and quickly. If we don't trade down, I don't see how we could get Brian Thomas Jr...would we trade up for him and pass on a CB? I just can't figure out how we could get MHJ, a CB and WR BTJ...please help me understand how that could happen. If that was to happen, we would be in playoff contention this season...
Marvin Harrison Jr. Brian Thomas Jr. Trey McBride
Michael Wilson Greg Dortch
That would be the most explosive Offensive Receiving Corp in the NFL...
and then ad a CB to that...Wow....
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Post by Chirpn’time on Apr 25, 2024 6:21:35 GMT -7
Nothing but respect for you Flash, I always enjoy your thought process and not always toeing the popular line. From my POV, Monti was gambling and attempting to get the best bang for the buck in a two year plus projection in 2023 draft. Knowing if the medicals became a long term issue he could pick up FAs and draft replacements in 2024 and 2025. I would also think the 2024 draft the way the team played in last 4 games and K1 playing well, this is the year to get as many now players with a mix of some projects long term. Monti will need to be blown away with a no brainier trade to come off MHJ. the next 2-3 picks are wild cards for him...we will see his acumen in the 2nd and 3rd picks. Very well may be CB and edge if his guys are available. IDL, OL and 2nd WR may be put into 3rd round and lower. I would not be surprised to see 2 WRs in 1st round and a CB...all depends on what happens... I honestly think a stick and pick with MHJ a CB and WR BTJ or MHJ, BTJ and Latu could be the first three picks. I do think offense is of greater value currently...picking two WRs in the first is an issue in five years as far as resigning both, but man twin towers with Conner and McBride...that is a nightmare for defenses and K1 can be the point guard distributing the ball all over and quickly. If we don't trade down, I don't see how we could get Brian Thomas Jr...would we trade up for him and pass on a CB? I just can't figure out how we could get MHJ, a CB and WR BTJ...please help me understand how that could happen. If that was to happen, we would be in playoff contention this season...
Marvin Harrison Jr. Brian Thomas Jr. Trey McBride
Michael Wilson Greg Dortch
That would be the most explosive Offensive Receiving Corp in the NFL...
and then ad a CB to that...Wow....
BTJ would have to be available at the Dolphin 1st round pick...I think they would be a good target to get BTJ. CB could get a run mid 1st round and if that happens a DT or edge would be the third pick option.
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Post by jeffcardinalfan on Apr 25, 2024 12:43:27 GMT -7
Nothing but respect for you Flash, I always enjoy your thought process and not always toeing the popular line. From my POV, Monti was gambling and attempting to get the best bang for the buck in a two year plus projection in 2023 draft. Knowing if the medicals became a long term issue he could pick up FAs and draft replacements in 2024 and 2025. I would also think the 2024 draft the way the team played in last 4 games and K1 playing well, this is the year to get as many now players with a mix of some projects long term. Monti will need to be blown away with a no brainier trade to come off MHJ. the next 2-3 picks are wild cards for him...we will see his acumen in the 2nd and 3rd picks. Very well may be CB and edge if his guys are available. IDL, OL and 2nd WR may be put into 3rd round and lower. I would not be surprised to see 2 WRs in 1st round and a CB...all depends on what happens... I honestly think a stick and pick with MHJ a CB and WR BTJ or MHJ, BTJ and Latu could be the first three picks. I do think offense is of greater value currently...picking two WRs in the first is an issue in five years as far as resigning both, but man twin towers with Conner and McBride...that is a nightmare for defenses and K1 can be the point guard distributing the ball all over and quickly. If we don't trade down, I don't see how we could get Brian Thomas Jr...would we trade up for him and pass on a CB? I just can't figure out how we could get MHJ, a CB and WR BTJ...please help me understand how that could happen. If that was to happen, we would be in playoff contention this season...
Marvin Harrison Jr. Brian Thomas Jr. Trey McBride
Michael Wilson Greg Dortch
That would be the most explosive Offensive Receiving Corp in the NFL...
and then ad a CB to that...Wow....
that would be great but it does not matter how good the receivers are if the quarterback is flat on his back
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Post by Dry Heat on Apr 25, 2024 13:07:37 GMT -7
If we don't trade down, I don't see how we could get Brian Thomas Jr...would we trade up for him and pass on a CB? I just can't figure out how we could get MHJ, a CB and WR BTJ...please help me understand how that could happen. If that was to happen, we would be in playoff contention this season...
Marvin Harrison Jr. Brian Thomas Jr. Trey McBride
Michael Wilson Greg Dortch
That would be the most explosive Offensive Receiving Corp in the NFL...
and then ad a CB to that...Wow....
that would be great but it does not matter how good the receivers are if the quarterback is flat on his back Or more importantly, the QB is watching from the sidelines because his defense can’t get off the field. I would rather pick someone who is coming after the QB on every passing play over a second WR pick or an interior Olineman at pick #27. I hope we get our WR1 with our first pick, but go very heavy on defense after.
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Post by cbltv on Apr 25, 2024 15:24:43 GMT -7
As it has been for years; the Scouting Dept makes their "Suggestions" for the upcoming pick(s). Then Coaches debate the choice(s), then a consensus is reached thru a vote. HC votes. If Tie GM decides like the VP in the Senate does. Rarely will Micheal override this process. This is how the Cards have run their Board for decades.
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Post by ~MainEvent~ on Apr 25, 2024 17:40:14 GMT -7
People don't care about this enormous elephant in the room man they just think more picks = greater odds to get a better player We're a bottom 3 team in evaluating talent and fans want to trade down to move further away from blue chip prospects on a team that lacks talent to get like the 3rd/4th best players at a position. It's flat out comical Respect the opinion but when you’re a 3 and 4 win team the past two years, you’re a lot more than one player away. Three first rounders instead of all the eggs in the basket of MHJ could reasonably be a wiser move. Also, do you think we were bottom 3 in evaluating talent last year? Were the teams Monti had a big part in player evaluation bad in evaluation? Cuz he is captain of that ship now, not Keim. And some of our top player evaluation guys were fired this off-season. You literally traded down for the opportunity last year to get more picks last year and we took a tackle that couldn't make an all rookie team, and Houston took DPOY. You win more than 3-4 games by actually acquiring blue chippers not 3-4 best options by repetedly moving down Thankfully he learned from his mistake and learned Quality >>> Quantity unlike y'all who fall in love w/ this every year
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Post by ~MainEvent~ on Apr 25, 2024 17:44:29 GMT -7
People don't care about this enormous elephant in the room man they just think more picks = greater odds to get a better player We're a bottom 3 team in evaluating talent and fans want to trade down to move further away from blue chip prospects on a team that lacks talent to get like the 3rd/4th best players at a position. It's flat out comical New regime, 1 draft, already complaining about how bad they are at evaluating talent. Having more picks means more darts and more chances of hitting the bullseye. Last regime sucked at drafting because they rather trade draft assets for mediocre players like Hollywood Brown and pray their 1 year deal with over the hill players may work. Then pick small fast players in the later round, which did not work at all. New regime spent last off season shedding bad contracts and trying to field a team, not a competitive team, but a team to get through the season. What we saw was rookies getting playing time and no rush to be a mediocre team. They seem to rather want to take the long road to success, something this organization has frankly never done. The Cardinals want to build through the draft, finally... They spent this off season signing players who can actually stay healthy. They didnt go out and try to over pay for one player. They got a bunch of blue collar players to help with depth. In a couple of more years this team should have a solid core and start looking like a few players away from being really good. That is when they start using the money they been shedding to go get those high end players in FA. They didn't draft a single impact rookie last year and that was even after picking top 5 w/ a team playing for nothing let's be serious here. How do you have a team w/ no remote superstars and all the PT available and have 0 guys w/ honorable mention for a rookie team? It's okay to be honest
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Post by JAB on Apr 25, 2024 22:54:08 GMT -7
People don't care about this enormous elephant in the room man they just think more picks = greater odds to get a better player We're a bottom 3 team in evaluating talent and fans want to trade down to move further away from blue chip prospects on a team that lacks talent to get like the 3rd/4th best players at a position. It's flat out comical This.
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Post by End Zone on Apr 26, 2024 3:30:25 GMT -7
As it has been for years; the Scouting Dept makes their "Suggestions" for the upcoming pick(s). Then Coaches debate the choice(s), then a consensus is reached thru a vote. HC votes. If Tie GM decides like the VP in the Senate does. Rarely will Micheal override this process. This is how the Cards have run their Board for decades. There is a new group involved at SFS. The Analytics Department is also involved in player fact-finding. How the AD interacts with the Coaches is anyone's guess. Ossenfort heaped plaudits on the AD for their hard work during the final presser prior to last night's Draft. MB was not mentioned at anytime by Ossenfort during the presser. Perhaps "The Bidwill's Hand" truly is not involved in player personnel anymore.
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Post by somecardsfan on Apr 26, 2024 6:38:32 GMT -7
New regime, 1 draft, already complaining about how bad they are at evaluating talent. Having more picks means more darts and more chances of hitting the bullseye. Last regime sucked at drafting because they rather trade draft assets for mediocre players like Hollywood Brown and pray their 1 year deal with over the hill players may work. Then pick small fast players in the later round, which did not work at all. New regime spent last off season shedding bad contracts and trying to field a team, not a competitive team, but a team to get through the season. What we saw was rookies getting playing time and no rush to be a mediocre team. They seem to rather want to take the long road to success, something this organization has frankly never done. The Cardinals want to build through the draft, finally... They spent this off season signing players who can actually stay healthy. They didnt go out and try to over pay for one player. They got a bunch of blue collar players to help with depth. In a couple of more years this team should have a solid core and start looking like a few players away from being really good. That is when they start using the money they been shedding to go get those high end players in FA. They didn't draft a single impact rookie last year and that was even after picking top 5 w/ a team playing for nothing let's be serious here. How do you have a team w/ no remote superstars and all the PT available and have 0 guys w/ honorable mention for a rookie team? It's okay to be honest Who cares about impact? They are rebuilding. No players made an impact last year. The team sucked, but the rookies got valuable playing time. Cards were busy shedding bad contracts and bad drafts from the past. You cannot expect a team rebuilding like the Cardianls who were not expected to even win a single game last year to have impact rookies. Now surround them with talent and see what happens. Would Anderson been an impact player for the Cardinals if they picked him instead of trading down? You talk about how ridiculous fans are about wanting to trade down, yet your statement sounds just as ridiculous acting like a draft class has to make an immediate impact to make the draft class successful or not. It takes time, especially when you are surrounded by a really bad team. This is a team sport, good players help make it easier for others. When you have a crappy dline who cannot keep the olinemen off the LB's at the second level, does that mean the LB you just drafted isnt good? The Cardinals needed players at almost every position last year and had 1 draft. In some cases they needed multiple players in one position. What impact are you expecting? Most of the season they played with a backup QB as their starting QB. Fans have some really outlandish expectations about this organization. When you are starting over, it takes time. I remember getting reamed when I said its going to take at least 3-4 years in this rebuild. Fans said 2 years. Yet here we are, year 2 and still far off from being a good team. Why? Because this team needs a lot of work.
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