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Post by End Zone on Oct 25, 2021 11:54:23 GMT -7
Was looking for Josh Jones PFF Here is a draft PFF grade Amazing. 93.2 PPF for Josh Jones in college. But someone had it right in the comments "Stronger opponents toss him around." I lived in Japan for 5 years and watched a lot of Sumo wrestling on Japanese TV. Strength was a given requirement. But speed and technique beat size in every match. It's the same in NFL football for offensive linemen. The big, heavy, and slowfooted NFL linement get their butts tossed around every time by the guys that know how to use speed and leverage. Jones has to learn. Or be gone. The team cannot sacrifice KM while Jones learns the trade.
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Post by cardinalsins on Oct 25, 2021 12:07:08 GMT -7
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Post by cardinalsins on Oct 25, 2021 12:12:05 GMT -7
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Post by devongent on Oct 25, 2021 12:39:55 GMT -7
The team cannot sacrifice KM while Jones learns the trade. Going back in time, lets have a look at pre-draft reviews of Josh Jones from some respected commentators. Firstly Tony Pauline, who evidently had major doubts: www.profootballnetwork.com/houston-josh-jones-scouting-report-2020-nfl-draft/Secondly Joe Marino, who believed that a lot of development work would be necessary: thedraftnetwork.com/player/josh-jones/EdwZbsWiZAI have posted before and will do so again; this constant switching between Guard and Tackle has not done Josh any favors and in my opinion has contributed to his difficulties in adapting to the NFL. His 'best position' is still a mystery to me, but I am assuming that he was drafted as our 'Right Tackle of the future'. This is the one position he needed to be kept at and should this have required him to 'sit, learn and develop' for a couple of seasons then so be it. Adapting from college football to the NFL is difficult at any position, but on the OL I think this to be particularly so. Apart from understanding all the technical aspects the player also needs to gain strength and speed, and everything together is no easy task. - Picking OL high in the draft has its downside in that often a good prospect is not NFL-ready and teams are understandably keen to get a contribution pay-back ASAP. Herein lies the dilemma. Ultimately we (and all teams) need to be realistic and recruit good OL-men who have the physical tools and then give them the 'time and space' to learn their craft.
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Post by End Zone on Oct 25, 2021 12:57:50 GMT -7
The team cannot sacrifice KM while Jones learns the trade. Going back in time, lets have a look at pre-draft reviews of Josh Jones from some respected commentators. Firstly Tony Pauline, who evidently had major doubts: www.profootballnetwork.com/houston-josh-jones-scouting-report-2020-nfl-draft/Secondly Joe Marino, who believed that a lot of development work would be necessary: thedraftnetwork.com/player/josh-jones/EdwZbsWiZAI have posted before and will do so again; this constant switching between Guard and Tackle has not done Josh any favors and in my opinion has contributed to his difficulties in adapting to the NFL. His 'best position' is still a mystery to me, but I am assuming that he was drafted as our 'Right Tackle of the future'. This is the one position he needed to be kept at and should this have required him to 'sit, learn and develop' for a couple of seasons then so be it. Adapting from college football to the NFL is difficult at any position, but on the OL I think this to be particularly so. Apart from understanding all the technical aspects the player also needs to gain strength and speed, and everything together is no easy task. - Picking OL high in the draft has its downside in that often a good prospect is not NFL-ready and teams are understandably keen to get a contribution pay-back ASAP. Herein lies the dilemma. Ultimately we (and all teams) need to be realistic and recruit good OL-men who have the physical tools and then give them the 'time and space' to learn their craft. I think all the hubbub about not dual-hatting the Guards and Tackles is hogwash. They are cheek to cheek on the Oline. They mostly look the same, work the same, and certainly smell the same. If a Guard cannot learn Tackle, and visa versa, then he's probably not well suited intellectually for the Cardinals which covets multi-role players.
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Post by cardinalsins on Oct 25, 2021 14:01:02 GMT -7
Not good
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Post by CardSunsCard on Oct 25, 2021 14:18:42 GMT -7
Going back in time, lets have a look at pre-draft reviews of Josh Jones from some respected commentators. Firstly Tony Pauline, who evidently had major doubts: www.profootballnetwork.com/houston-josh-jones-scouting-report-2020-nfl-draft/Secondly Joe Marino, who believed that a lot of development work would be necessary: thedraftnetwork.com/player/josh-jones/EdwZbsWiZAI have posted before and will do so again; this constant switching between Guard and Tackle has not done Josh any favors and in my opinion has contributed to his difficulties in adapting to the NFL. His 'best position' is still a mystery to me, but I am assuming that he was drafted as our 'Right Tackle of the future'. This is the one position he needed to be kept at and should this have required him to 'sit, learn and develop' for a couple of seasons then so be it. Adapting from college football to the NFL is difficult at any position, but on the OL I think this to be particularly so. Apart from understanding all the technical aspects the player also needs to gain strength and speed, and everything together is no easy task. - Picking OL high in the draft has its downside in that often a good prospect is not NFL-ready and teams are understandably keen to get a contribution pay-back ASAP. Herein lies the dilemma. Ultimately we (and all teams) need to be realistic and recruit good OL-men who have the physical tools and then give them the 'time and space' to learn their craft. I think all the hubbub about not dual-hatting the Guards and Tackles is hogwash. They are cheek to cheek on the Oline. They mostly look the same, work the same, and certainly smell the same. If a Guard cannot learn Tackle, and visa versa, then he's probably not well suited intellectually for the Cardinals which covets multi-role players. I disagree to an extent. Tackle is much harder to play, especially if you protect the blindside. You've got to have quick feet against today's edge rushers which are mostly 'speed' guys. Jones was great at that. Where everyone knew he was weak was run blocking technique, because you need more power to run block. I never thought guard was ideal for him but I'm trusting Kugler given he's been a magician otherwise. Also, how strong is Max Garcia? The center usually supports the weaker guard or vice versa, so you see what a difference it makes when our starting center is out. O-line has one of the longest learning curves in the NFL, not because of technique, but because most college lineman need a minimum of one year to add strength. Jones likely needs two. He has the feet to be an excellent pass protecting tackle. He just doesn't have the strength.
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Post by aris on Oct 25, 2021 14:22:30 GMT -7
The team cannot sacrifice KM while Jones learns the trade. Going back in time, lets have a look at pre-draft reviews of Josh Jones from some respected commentators. Firstly Tony Pauline, who evidently had major doubts: www.profootballnetwork.com/houston-josh-jones-scouting-report-2020-nfl-draft/Secondly Joe Marino, who believed that a lot of development work would be necessary: thedraftnetwork.com/player/josh-jones/EdwZbsWiZAI have posted before and will do so again; this constant switching between Guard and Tackle has not done Josh any favors and in my opinion has contributed to his difficulties in adapting to the NFL. His 'best position' is still a mystery to me, but I am assuming that he was drafted as our 'Right Tackle of the future'. This is the one position he needed to be kept at and should this have required him to 'sit, learn and develop' for a couple of seasons then so be it. Adapting from college football to the NFL is difficult at any position, but on the OL I think this to be particularly so. Apart from understanding all the technical aspects the player also needs to gain strength and speed, and everything together is no easy task. - Picking OL high in the draft has its downside in that often a good prospect is not NFL-ready and teams are understandably keen to get a contribution pay-back ASAP. Herein lies the dilemma. Ultimately we (and all teams) need to be realistic and recruit good OL-men who have the physical tools and then give them the 'time and space' to learn their craft. Remember DJ Humphries was called "knee deep" by Arians? A lot of what Jones needs to learn is technique and leverage against stronger better opponents. I think he will be a very good lineman in this league. He's very athletic from his body type, I wouldnt be surprised to see him at RT one day.
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Post by cardinalsins on Oct 25, 2021 15:30:13 GMT -7
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Post by End Zone on Oct 25, 2021 16:07:02 GMT -7
I think all the hubbub about not dual-hatting the Guards and Tackles is hogwash. They are cheek to cheek on the Oline. They mostly look the same, work the same, and certainly smell the same. If a Guard cannot learn Tackle, and visa versa, then he's probably not well suited intellectually for the Cardinals which covets multi-role players. I disagree to an extent. Tackle is much harder to play, especially if you protect the blindside. You've got to have quick feet against today's edge rushers which are mostly 'speed' guys. Jones was great at that. Where everyone knew he was weak was run blocking technique, because you need more power to run block. I never thought guard was ideal for him but I'm trusting Kugler given he's been a magician otherwise. Also, how strong is Max Garcia? The center usually supports the weaker guard or vice versa, so you see what a difference it makes when our starting center is out. O-line has one of the longest learning curves in the NFL, not because of technique, but because most college lineman need a minimum of one year to add strength. Jones likely needs two. He has the feet to be an excellent pass protecting tackle. He just doesn't have the strength. I know exactly what you are saying about learning and protecting the left side, or blind side. Jones is RG. He certainly won't cut it at LG unless he's holding back using some brain cells.
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Boomer
Pro Bowler
Posts: 1,355
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Post by Boomer on Oct 25, 2021 16:39:27 GMT -7
Can we grade the refs? It's easy to do when you lose and you are looking for any reason to feel better, but the face mask non call on the safety and saying that Ertz fumbled the ball away on the one were pretty egregious oversights. One never got called and the other was overturned but C'MON MAN.
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Post by CardSunsCard on Oct 25, 2021 16:55:18 GMT -7
I disagree to an extent. Tackle is much harder to play, especially if you protect the blindside. You've got to have quick feet against today's edge rushers which are mostly 'speed' guys. Jones was great at that. Where everyone knew he was weak was run blocking technique, because you need more power to run block. I never thought guard was ideal for him but I'm trusting Kugler given he's been a magician otherwise. Also, how strong is Max Garcia? The center usually supports the weaker guard or vice versa, so you see what a difference it makes when our starting center is out. O-line has one of the longest learning curves in the NFL, not because of technique, but because most college lineman need a minimum of one year to add strength. Jones likely needs two. He has the feet to be an excellent pass protecting tackle. He just doesn't have the strength. I know exactly what you are saying about learning and protecting the left side, or blind side. Jones is RG. He certainly won't cut it at LG unless he's holding back suing some brain cells. I don't want to give up on Josh Jones, but if it ever gets that bad, maybe a swap of him and Andre Dilliard would do both some good. But he needs another year to build muscle. He didn't even get a full year 1 due to COVID limitations.
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Post by devongent on Oct 26, 2021 0:31:59 GMT -7
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Post by End Zone on Oct 26, 2021 2:39:04 GMT -7
Devongent, thanks for the new links. I pulled up the Phillyvoice articles and read / quoted some interesting items about Dillard, plus, I added my own thoughts below. (1) A former 1st round pick and still youthfully wet behind the ears, Dillard has slipped on the Eagles depth chart, from promising #1 to lackluster #2. Quote - " Dillard has not been perfect. He still struggles at times when it comes to his run blocking, being out-leveraged at times by edge rushers and linebackers at the point of attack on running plays. Dillard also struggles to get a sustained push on running plays, not always showing the nastiness and physicality you see with some of the top run blockers in the game. Both of those things are correctable, and if Dillard continues to play, he can get better at it." (2) The quote implies the man lacks necessary speed and strength to perform as the starter. It is true that technique can be taught, and that strength can be improved up to a point. Dillard's speed is already maximized, unless he loses precious weight and that's just not going to happen if he wants to keep his job. (3) The For Sale sign seems to be posted on Dillard. Price negotiable. Dillard is likely available if a team needs a starter backup and a project Olineman. Dillard anyone...? (4) The Cardinals are out of CAP space for a straight up player trade for Dillard, and Philly would want a payback for the former 1st Rounder, likely a similar pick in 2022, but they won't get more than a 5th and 7th for a questionable return on investment (ROI). A suggested 3rd rounder is laughable given that Dillard has underperformed in 2-plus years work. (5) If Dillard settles in as PHI's #2, and continues to improve, perhaps he will blossom and be the starter that the team covets. His rookie contract cost seems to mitigate that from happening though. Backups don't make almost $12M per year. Jones and Dillard seem to be in the same spot. Two peas in pods with flaws and potential and big costs to keep.
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Post by aris on Oct 26, 2021 9:26:27 GMT -7
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