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Post by Zaz on May 15, 2019 16:44:00 GMT -7
Even with Rosen out there you still have Larry Fitzgerald, David Johnson, Patrick Peterson who went to LSU & also Buddha Baker from an excellent Washington secondary which held Alabama below their season average and would have been lower if Jake Browning didn't throw a pick 6. Rosen was very good in college, UCLA was awful. It is too soon to tell if any of these rookies you mention including Tue will work out. Alabama is playing Western Carolina late in the season. They don't have to go up against a NFL team weak in and weak out and Saban flopped in the NFL. Bill Parcells went 3-12-1 in his very first season and ended up in the hall of fame. Steve Wilks was part of the defensive staff for two Conference Champions. I wont judge Wilks based on the awful season & Keim was suspended for a key portion. Wilks didn't do that to himself. Youre shifting the argument though. The statement is "can a great college team beat a bad NFL team" So I can assemble an NFL team of trash. John Skelton, Levi Brown. Beanie Wells. Brandon Williams. Etc. No stars. And the "pro NFL" side would say that team of trash can beat the best Alabama football team, by virtue that "they are NFL players".
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Post by Rimrock on May 15, 2019 16:59:42 GMT -7
obviously you are..lol..thats ok the rest of us gets it...lol
ok a post back..and .............
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Post by birdgangaz on May 15, 2019 20:02:44 GMT -7
Even with Rosen out there you still have Larry Fitzgerald, David Johnson, Patrick Peterson who went to LSU & also Buddha Baker from an excellent Washington secondary which held Alabama below their season average and would have been lower if Jake Browning didn't throw a pick 6. Rosen was very good in college, UCLA was awful. It is too soon to tell if any of these rookies you mention including Tue will work out. Alabama is playing Western Carolina late in the season. They don't have to go up against a NFL team weak in and weak out and Saban flopped in the NFL. Bill Parcells went 3-12-1 in his very first season and ended up in the hall of fame. Steve Wilks was part of the defensive staff for two Conference Champions. I wont judge Wilks based on the awful season & Keim was suspended for a key portion. Wilks didn't do that to himself. Youre shifting the argument though. The statement is "can a great college team beat a bad NFL team" So I can assemble an NFL team of trash. John Skelton, Levi Brown. Beanie Wells. Brandon Williams. Etc. No stars. And the "pro NFL" side would say that team of trash can beat the best Alabama football team, by virtue that "they are NFL players". You are absolutely moving the goal posts. You clearly said an NFL team before. That means a real team and not some fake team assembled and coached by Zaz for the sole purpose of losing. Consider this, even the best college teams have only a handful of players who will ever start for an NFL team.
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Post by Redbirdfan62 on May 16, 2019 5:32:52 GMT -7
John Skelton was like Peyton Manning at the college level and even your average NFL team is made up of college all stars. Alabama didn't even win the National Championship and they get a ride to the playoffs no matter what. NFL teams can outscheme college teams. Plus the SEC loves to play a lower division scrub team at home late in the season, not the same. The 2018 Cardinals in fact beat NFL teams. Could probably beat the best college team you throw at them. Nope. I can pick it apart position by position. But Ill just do a few: Outscheme them? Youre saying Wilks is a better coach than Saban, and will outcoach Saban? I dont think so. How about OL. Alabama vs AZ. Considering Alabama has a 1st rounder every single year. Many around here wanted Jonah Williams. Why would you want Jonah Williams if NFL players are better than College players? Maybe because Jonah is Better than Hump? hmmmm. How about DL? Quinnen Williams might be the next Aaron Donald. He couldve been selected #1 overall. If he was, he would in fact be a backup behind Nkemdiche, considering NFL vets are better than college players always. QB? Tua is probably the #1 pick next year. And ill stay with Rosen as the "NFL Vet" in this scenario, because using Kyler would acutally prove my point. (Why get rid of the amazing NFL Vet Rosen and take the college kid Murray???). So Tua v Rosen. Tua was better than Rosen in college and will be better than Rosen in the NFL. Talent matters. Not job title. etc. etc. The simple fact that you draft college kids and get rid of vets means that those college kids are probably alot better than your vets. Hence...if you have a college team full of superstars, they will beat (and replace) your crappy NFL team full of vets. I don't have an exact amount of players that start from day one in the nfl. The nfl has a learning curve to it the game can be more complex and the athletes are better then in college as a whole. Drafts may look good on paper but until they get on the field and prove they belong there is no way you can speak in absolutes. The bust rate is so high from college to the nfl and even your best team at Alabama not all the players make it at the nfl level. College teams are made up of a few guys that get drafted and the rest go on hopefully to put their education to use. Some of these guys break out their rookie season but most don't breakout out til their 2nd or 3rd season and many never break out and are considered busts.
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Post by Redbirdfan62 on May 16, 2019 5:40:09 GMT -7
Youre shifting the argument though. The statement is "can a great college team beat a bad NFL team" So I can assemble an NFL team of trash. John Skelton, Levi Brown. Beanie Wells. Brandon Williams. Etc. No stars. And the "pro NFL" side would say that team of trash can beat the best Alabama football team, by virtue that "they are NFL players". You are absolutely moving the goal posts. You clearly said an NFL team before. That means a real team and not some fake team assembled and coached by Zaz for the sole purpose of losing. Consider this, even the best college teams have only a handful of players who will ever start for an NFL team. I guess he is missing the part where the competition level is much higher in the nfl level over the college level.
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Post by Zaz on May 16, 2019 9:08:10 GMT -7
Youre shifting the argument though. The statement is "can a great college team beat a bad NFL team" So I can assemble an NFL team of trash. John Skelton, Levi Brown. Beanie Wells. Brandon Williams. Etc. No stars. And the "pro NFL" side would say that team of trash can beat the best Alabama football team, by virtue that "they are NFL players". You are absolutely moving the goal posts. You clearly said an NFL team before. That means a real team and not some fake team assembled and coached by Zaz for the sole purpose of losing. Consider this, even the best college teams have only a handful of players who will ever start for an NFL team. Fine, we can go with that route. It doesnt change anything. And youre right. The best college teams only have a handful of players who will play in the NFL. HOWEVER..who those players are is the X factor. If your college team has a star QB, LT and pass rusher, then youre probably going to beat any NFL team that doesnt have those players (which is alot of bad teams). Moreover...there is zero validity to saying "all NFL players were stars in college, thats why they were in the NFL". Brandon Williams? Robert Nkemdiche? Heckenberg? These were bad players in college and bad players in the NFL. Alot of guys are drafted based on "Potential". So you can have a bad NFL team full of these "potential" guys getting their butts whooped by an Alabama team full of proven studs. Robert Nkemdiche has been in the NFL for 5 years now and I would take rookie Quinnen Williams EVERYTIME.
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Post by birdgangaz on May 16, 2019 12:05:44 GMT -7
You are absolutely moving the goal posts. You clearly said an NFL team before. That means a real team and not some fake team assembled and coached by Zaz for the sole purpose of losing. Consider this, even the best college teams have only a handful of players who will ever start for an NFL team. Fine, we can go with that route. It doesnt change anything. And youre right. The best college teams only have a handful of players who will play in the NFL. HOWEVER..who those players are is the X factor. If your college team has a star QB, LT and pass rusher, then youre probably going to beat any NFL team that doesnt have those players (which is alot of bad teams). Moreover...there is zero validity to saying "all NFL players were stars in college, thats why they were in the NFL". Brandon Williams? Robert Nkemdiche? Heckenberg? These were bad players in college and bad players in the NFL. Alot of guys are drafted based on "Potential". So you can have a bad NFL team full of these "potential" guys getting their butts whooped by an Alabama team full of proven studs. Robert Nkemdiche has been in the NFL for 5 years now and I would take rookie Quinnen Williams EVERYTIME. Even the best players from college have to be ready to learn and make great strides of improvement when they join the NFL, that is why so many great players from college do not make it. Since you are saying college teams with a star QB, LT and pass rusher can beat any NFL team that doesn't have that, then why dance around the obvious next step? You should easily be able to identify a current college team which you think will beat a current NFL team. Would you go so far as to give an example?
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Post by jonlp24 on May 16, 2019 12:59:56 GMT -7
You are absolutely moving the goal posts. You clearly said an NFL team before. That means a real team and not some fake team assembled and coached by Zaz for the sole purpose of losing. Consider this, even the best college teams have only a handful of players who will ever start for an NFL team. Fine, we can go with that route. It doesnt change anything. And youre right. The best college teams only have a handful of players who will play in the NFL. HOWEVER..who those players are is the X factor. If your college team has a star QB, LT and pass rusher, then youre probably going to beat any NFL team that doesnt have those players (which is alot of bad teams). Moreover...there is zero validity to saying "all NFL players were stars in college, thats why they were in the NFL". Brandon Williams? Robert Nkemdiche? Heckenberg? These were bad players in college and bad players in the NFL. Alot of guys are drafted based on "Potential". So you can have a bad NFL team full of these "potential" guys getting their butts whooped by an Alabama team full of proven studs. Robert Nkemdiche has been in the NFL for 5 years now and I would take rookie Quinnen Williams EVERYTIME. I don't know enough about Brandon Williams or Heckenburg but Nkemdiche was a good player in college. His draft stock fell because of marijuana which should be legalized. Better than PEDs. One of the most highly touted recruits in the program's history,[3] Nkemdiche arrived at Ole Miss with plenty of hype, being named SEC’s Top Impact Freshman by Sporting News before the season.[19] He played in 11 games with 10 starts (six at defensive end and four at defensive tackle), and amassed 34 tackles (25 solo), 2.0 sacks, two pass breakups, and three quarterback hurries on the 2013 season. Nkemdiche made his college debut against conference opponent Vanderbilt, posting two tackles with a tackle-for-loss and a pass break-up.[20] He missed the Louisiana State and Idaho games with a strained hamstring.[21] After the season, Nkemdiche was named Freshman All-SEC by the league's coaches, and a First team Freshman All-American selection by Athlon and College Football News. As a sophomore, Nkemdiche started every game at the defensive tackle position on an Ole Miss defensive line that led the nation in scoring defense (16.0 ppg) and lead the SEC in tackles for loss (7.6/game). Nkemdiche himself contributed 35 tackles with 4.0 tackles-for-loss, 2.0 sacks, and a pass breakup on the season. His best game was against in-state rival Mississippi State, in which he was credited for a career-high seven tackles, of which three were solo, and one tackle-for-a-loss. Nkemdiche was a semifinalist for the Lombardi Award and was named All-SEC first team by Associated Press (AP), as well as All-America second team by AP, Sporting News, USA Today, and CBS Sports. After an incident involving marijuana (see below) in December 2015, Nkemdiche was suspended for the 2016 Sugar Bowl against Oklahoma State.[22] After the season, Nkemdiche decided to forego his senior year and enter the 2016 NFL Draft. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Nkemdiche
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Post by Zaz on May 16, 2019 13:10:03 GMT -7
Fine, we can go with that route. It doesnt change anything. And youre right. The best college teams only have a handful of players who will play in the NFL. HOWEVER..who those players are is the X factor. If your college team has a star QB, LT and pass rusher, then youre probably going to beat any NFL team that doesnt have those players (which is alot of bad teams). Moreover...there is zero validity to saying "all NFL players were stars in college, thats why they were in the NFL". Brandon Williams? Robert Nkemdiche? Heckenberg? These were bad players in college and bad players in the NFL. Alot of guys are drafted based on "Potential". So you can have a bad NFL team full of these "potential" guys getting their butts whooped by an Alabama team full of proven studs. Robert Nkemdiche has been in the NFL for 5 years now and I would take rookie Quinnen Williams EVERYTIME. Even the best players from college have to be ready to learn and make great strides of improvement when they join the NFL, that is why so many great players from college do not make it. Since you are saying college teams with a star QB, LT and pass rusher can beat any NFL team that doesn't have that, then why dance around the obvious next step? You should easily be able to identify a current college team which you think will beat a current NFL team. Would you go so far as to give an example? 2018 Alabama couldve beat 2018 AZ Cardinals. Coaching: Alabama > AZ QB: Alabama > AZ OL: Alabama > AZ WR: Alabama > AZ (AZ has larry. Bama has 3 NFL claiber WRs) RBs: AZ > Alabama TE: Alabama > AZ DL: Alabama > AZ (by about 1,000 miles) LB > Alabama > AZ DBs: AZ > Alabama Prove me wrong. Alabama has more talent and ability player by player. And overwhelmingly so. And before I forget MOST IMPORTANTLY is certain positions themselves: QB is by far most important. And Tua is significantly better than Rosen. OL is very important and Bamas OL is better. Coaching. Mccoys offense wouldnt be anyone. Saban is a mastermind.
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Post by jonlp24 on May 16, 2019 13:16:36 GMT -7
Even the best players from college have to be ready to learn and make great strides of improvement when they join the NFL, that is why so many great players from college do not make it. Since you are saying college teams with a star QB, LT and pass rusher can beat any NFL team that doesn't have that, then why dance around the obvious next step? You should easily be able to identify a current college team which you think will beat a current NFL team. Would you go so far as to give an example? 2018 Alabama couldve beat 2018 AZ Cardinals. Coaching: Alabama > AZ QB: Alabama > AZ OL: Alabama > AZ WR: Alabama > AZ (AZ has larry. Bama has 3 NFL claiber WRs) RBs: AZ > Alabama TE: Alabama > AZ DL: Alabama > AZ (by about 1,000 miles) LB > Alabama > AZ DBs: AZ > Alabama Prove me wrong. Alabama has more talent and ability player by player. And overwhelmingly so. Wait didn't the Cardinals draft like 5 wide receivers this year? Andy Isabella? Also the Cardinals got a decent receiver in past years' draft Have you seen Saban coach for Miami Dolphins Anonymous college football coach says 'cheating' Nick Saban is the most overrated coach In a recent “Candid Coaches” installment from CBS Sports, one coach voted for Saban as the sport’s most overrated coach. He also threw accusations of cheating at the Alabama coach. Via CBS Sports: “If you had the No. 1 recruiting class in the country every year [you’d win like Nick Saban]. He shows up at every single game with a better roster than the teams he ‘s playing. … If you count cheating and getting the best players in the country as part of running a program, he’s the best in the country. It’s like saying an NFL coach is the best coach in the league if he gets 25 first-round picks every year.” www.google.com/amp/s/ftw.usatoday.com/2018/08/nick-saban-cheating-coach-anonymous-comments-college-football-overrated-alabama/ampSaban might be a better coach than Kingsbury (I didn't like the hire) but give any coach the #1 recruiting class they should win more games.
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Post by Zaz on May 16, 2019 13:18:52 GMT -7
2018 Alabama couldve beat 2018 AZ Cardinals. Coaching: Alabama > AZ QB: Alabama > AZ OL: Alabama > AZ WR: Alabama > AZ (AZ has larry. Bama has 3 NFL claiber WRs) RBs: AZ > Alabama TE: Alabama > AZ DL: Alabama > AZ (by about 1,000 miles) LB > Alabama > AZ DBs: AZ > Alabama Prove me wrong. Alabama has more talent and ability player by player. And overwhelmingly so. Wait didn't the Cardinals draft like 5 wide receivers this year? Andy Isabella? Also the Cardinals got a decent receiver in past years' draft Have you seen Saban coach for Miami Dolphins Anonymous college football coach says 'cheating' Nick Saban is the most overrated coach In a recent “Candid Coaches” installment from CBS Sports, one coach voted for Saban as the sport’s most overrated coach. He also threw accusations of cheating at the Alabama coach. Via CBS Sports: “If you had the No. 1 recruiting class in the country every year [you’d win like Nick Saban]. He shows up at every single game with a better roster than the teams he ‘s playing. … If you count cheating and getting the best players in the country as part of running a program, he’s the best in the country. It’s like saying an NFL coach is the best coach in the league if he gets 25 first-round picks every year.” www.google.com/amp/s/ftw.usatoday.com/2018/08/nick-saban-cheating-coach-anonymous-comments-college-football-overrated-alabama/ampSaban might be a better coach than Kingsbury (I didn't like the hire) but give any coach the #1 recruiting class they should win more games. Why are you jumping all over the place? We've made it real simple: 2018 Alabama v 2018 AZ. Have at it.
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Post by jonlp24 on May 16, 2019 13:36:57 GMT -7
I still think Arizona wins easily. Jermaine Greisham was the best TE while he was at Oklahoma but you still give Alabama the edge. Maybe Alabama's QB will be better than Rosen in the future but Rosen is better in 2018. The Cardinals have Chandler Jones on their DL.
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Post by birdgangaz on May 16, 2019 16:00:08 GMT -7
Even the best players from college have to be ready to learn and make great strides of improvement when they join the NFL, that is why so many great players from college do not make it. Since you are saying college teams with a star QB, LT and pass rusher can beat any NFL team that doesn't have that, then why dance around the obvious next step? You should easily be able to identify a current college team which you think will beat a current NFL team. Would you go so far as to give an example? 2018 Alabama couldve beat 2018 AZ Cardinals. Coaching: Alabama > AZ QB: Alabama > AZ OL: Alabama > AZ WR: Alabama > AZ (AZ has larry. Bama has 3 NFL claiber WRs) RBs: AZ > Alabama TE: Alabama > AZ DL: Alabama > AZ (by about 1,000 miles) LB > Alabama > AZ DBs: AZ > Alabama Prove me wrong. Alabama has more talent and ability player by player. And overwhelmingly so. And before I forget MOST IMPORTANTLY is certain positions themselves: QB is by far most important. And Tua is significantly better than Rosen. OL is very important and Bamas OL is better. Coaching. Mccoys offense wouldnt be anyone. Saban is a mastermind. "Prove me wrong" as if that would ever be possible.. lol. We all know there is no conclusion to this debate, I just wanted to get a clearer picture of your opinion. I think the biggest advantage Alabama would have is schemes/coaching (and knowing what they are doing), but I still don't think that could overcome a roster of grown-ass NFL players. I think our offense would have some difficulty, but I believe the defense would give Alabama a big fat 0 burger. Remember, they only scored 16 against the D of Clemson. When these offenses that look so great against the riffraff get tested against superior athletes, they crumble an can't do anything.
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Post by Zaz on May 16, 2019 17:35:35 GMT -7
I still think Arizona wins easily. Jermaine Greisham was the best TE while he was at Oklahoma but you still give Alabama the edge. Maybe Alabama's QB will be better than Rosen in the future but Rosen is better in 2018. The Cardinals have Chandler Jones on their DL. Why? You havent broken out like I did. Jermain Gresham isnt at Oklahoma anymore. Hes a 30 year old over the hill injury plagued penalty machine. Irv Smith Jr is young and strong. Of course hes better. And if you think 2018 Josh Rosen is better than 2018 Tua.....theres no point in this.
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Post by jonlp24 on May 16, 2019 18:03:54 GMT -7
I still think Arizona wins easily. Jermaine Greisham was the best TE while he was at Oklahoma but you still give Alabama the edge. Maybe Alabama's QB will be better than Rosen in the future but Rosen is better in 2018. The Cardinals have Chandler Jones on their DL. Why? You havent broken out like I did. Jermain Gresham isnt at Oklahoma anymore. Hes a 30 year old over the hill injury plagued penalty machine. Irv Smith Jr is young and strong. Of course hes better. And if you think 2018 Josh Rosen is better than 2018 Tua.....theres no point in this. I'll break down like this arguing whether college team can beat a NFL team is sports debate 101. On other topics you make good points so no disrespect intended.
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