|
|
Post by FLCardinalFan on Jun 18, 2024 18:39:26 GMT -7
Kyler Murray Enters his 6th season. Now days in the NFL quarterbacks are expected to produce
much faster than in the late 1960's thru the 1980's. This was the case with QB Jim Hart.
This isn't a comparison of the two QBS. Both are different in so many ways.
Since I followed both QBs and watched them play, Here is what I saw.
They both needed the right coaches and right players. With Hart
he had the great WRS and O line, Kyler has the WRS coming along now
and the line is so much better. Both had great running backs Hart had more depth.
This will change with my FSU guy Trey Benson coming in.
Jim Hart's start was horrible and as a teenager I wanted him replaced so bad
I was pulling my hair out. Terry Nofsinger, Tim Van Galder, Pete Beathard, Gary Cuzzo, Dennis Shaw, Steve Pisarkiewicz
They all tried to replace him. He was never going to leave that pocket either by being replaced or running the football.
He had no mobility. Unless you moved him with a hand truck. But that release was a rocket and strong.
1st season: #17 Hart's first and only start was IN 1966 4-11
2nd season: 19 TDS & 30 picks yikes
Don Coryell comes along and with him builds a staff
probably one of the best in NFL History.
Jim Hart & Coryell came together in 1973 ended in 1977
Offensive Line coach build him a line that cut the sacks from 22 down to 8
Air Coryell made him a Pro Bowl QB 4 times
Joe Gibbs former Super Bowl Coach was his Offensive Coordinator.
They took advantage of his quick release and strong arm and he excelled.
Link 1966-1977 Look at the years 1973-77
www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/crd/
Kyler Murray starts his 6th year in the NFL, Like Hart he has shined
Mobility, extending plays, making great throws.
Word out of camp is that he is back.
We have no more follies at coaching.
Coach Gannon is earning the respect not trying to be the
coolest coach in town.
Drew Petzig and the rest of the offensive coaches seems a far cry
better than the past regime. Play calling miscues were way down
Kyler's stats:
www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MurrKy00.htm
Highlights Jim Hart 1967
Highlights Kyler rookie season 2019
NOW!, IF Kyler can play for 17 years and hold off all challengers like
Jim Hart then like The late great Jack Buck used to say " That's a winner."
|
|
|
|
Post by CardsFanQC on Jun 19, 2024 4:07:21 GMT -7
Great summary on the Cardinals and Jim Hart whom I only remember being a very good QB ... 30 INT's in 1973 - WOW !! When you look at the Coryell years there are potential definite parallels to the current Cardinal team - - First year of Coryell regime only had 4 wins before big jump to 10 wins in Yr. #2
- In that 2nd yr., WR Mel Gray became a standout receiver with speed and he was paired with the previous year's top receiver eventual HOF TE Jackie Smith (could the MHJ - McBride WR/TE combo provide similar results).
- In the 2nd Yr (1974) of the Coryell era, RB Terry Metcalf became a dynamic runner/receiver out of backfield and he was paired with hard nosed Jim Otis in adding the "thunder and lightning" approach to a running back room (could the Connor/Benson/Carter combination also make the 2024 Cardinal offense hard to stop ?)
- Good offensive play-calling with weapons created an environment for the QB to succeed and create a high-powered offense.
Word of Caution to MB from looking at this history -- Coryell averaged over 10 wins (in a 14 game schedule) 3 yrs in a row (1974-1976) but when the team went to 7-7 in 1977, "old man" Bidwill fired Coryell. RESULT: It took until 2009 on a 16 game schedule before the AZ Cardinals had double digit wins again - over 31 seasons of futility because a HOF coach was fired for going .500 after having a winning percentage of 74% the previous three seasons !!!!
I can only hope if this team makes a big jump and has several seasons in a row of being a playoff team and possibly being NFC West division champions in 2025-2027 that one "So-So" Year makes the son Michael Bidwill NOT repeat the "sin" of the father.
|
|
|
|
Post by FLCardinalFan on Jun 19, 2024 6:53:33 GMT -7
30 INT's in 1973 - WOW !! 1967 30 INTS his real rookie season as starter I agree you have to give a regime the time but the league is a win quick. Detroit is a perfect example of a quick turnaround. Dan Campbell is the man in Detroit. |
|
|
|
Post by jeffcardinalfan on Jun 19, 2024 13:49:58 GMT -7
Just a few fun little tidbits about Jim Hart
The biggest one is that he was not even been on the roster if the Cardinals had successfully been able to sign Joe Namath
He was only giving the chance to start because the incumbent starter Charlie Johnson was called into national guard full service.
He once scored two rushing touchdowns in the game against the Buffalo bills
Towards the end of his career when the Cardinals had drafted Neil Lomax and I believe it was Neil's second year the game plan was for Lomax to start and then if the game was close at the end to put hart in to win the game. Again if memory serves me it was either against the oilers or the bears when this situation came up towards the end of the season and hart being a top level professional told to head coach he wasn't warmed up and to let the kid finish the game. The Cardinals won that game and I do not think hart ever played again for the cardinals.
Jim did make a super bowl appearance. He was Joe theismann's backup in harts 17th year. That was the year that the raiders absolutely demolished the Redskins in the super bowl. Jim threw one pass for no yards which was incomplete
|
|
|
|
Post by cbltv on Jun 20, 2024 10:19:46 GMT -7
Great summary on the Cardinals and Jim Hart whom I only remember being a very good QB ... 30 INT's in 1973 - WOW !! When you look at the Coryell years there are potential definite parallels to the current Cardinal team - - First year of Coryell regime only had 4 wins before big jump to 10 wins in Yr. #2
- In that 2nd yr., WR Mel Gray became a standout receiver with speed and he was paired with the previous year's top receiver eventual HOF TE Jackie Smith (could the MHJ - McBride WR/TE combo provide similar results).
- In the 2nd Yr (1974) of the Coryell era, RB Terry Metcalf became a dynamic runner/receiver out of backfield and he was paired with hard nosed Jim Otis in adding the "thunder and lightning" approach to a running back room (could the Connor/Benson/Carter combination also make the 2024 Cardinal offense hard to stop ?)
- Good offensive play-calling with weapons created an environment for the QB to succeed and create a high-powered offense.
Word of Caution to MB from looking at this history -- Coryell averaged over 10 wins (in a 14 game schedule) 3 yrs in a row (1974-1976) but when the team went to 7-7 in 1977, "old man" Bidwill fired Coryell. RESULT: It took until 2009 on a 16 game schedule before the AZ Cardinals had double digit wins again - over 31 seasons of futility because a HOF coach was fired for going .500 after having a winning percentage of 74% the previous three seasons !!!!
I can only hope if this team makes a big jump and has several seasons in a row of being a playoff team and possibly being NFC West division champions in 2025-2027 that one "So-So" Year makes the son Michael Bidwill NOT repeat the "sin" of the father.
And the only reason the cards ended up 7-7 was the Miami game were 3 DBs left the game injured. 2 out for the season that were starters. Only Roger Wherli escaped injury, The Cards Back field was decimated. They were 7-3 before that Devastating Miami loss. If suitable DB replacement had been available. They might have had another winning season in 77. There was also this problem that was building during Coryell's time with the cards, Bidwill and George Boone ran the Draft. They disregarded Coryell's input on draft choices the whole time he was HC in St Louis. One of THE BIGGEST Mistakes Billy B. ever made! |
|
|
|
Post by End Zone on Jun 20, 2024 14:29:59 GMT -7
Great summary on the Cardinals and Jim Hart whom I only remember being a very good QB ... 30 INT's in 1973 - WOW !! When you look at the Coryell years there are potential definite parallels to the current Cardinal team - - First year of Coryell regime only had 4 wins before big jump to 10 wins in Yr. #2
- In that 2nd yr., WR Mel Gray became a standout receiver with speed and he was paired with the previous year's top receiver eventual HOF TE Jackie Smith (could the MHJ - McBride WR/TE combo provide similar results).
- In the 2nd Yr (1974) of the Coryell era, RB Terry Metcalf became a dynamic runner/receiver out of backfield and he was paired with hard nosed Jim Otis in adding the "thunder and lightning" approach to a running back room (could the Connor/Benson/Carter combination also make the 2024 Cardinal offense hard to stop ?)
- Good offensive play-calling with weapons created an environment for the QB to succeed and create a high-powered offense.
Word of Caution to MB from looking at this history -- Coryell averaged over 10 wins (in a 14 game schedule) 3 yrs in a row (1974-1976) but when the team went to 7-7 in 1977, "old man" Bidwill fired Coryell. RESULT: It took until 2009 on a 16 game schedule before the AZ Cardinals had double digit wins again - over 31 seasons of futility because a HOF coach was fired for going .500 after having a winning percentage of 74% the previous three seasons !!!!
I can only hope if this team makes a big jump and has several seasons in a row of being a playoff team and possibly being NFC West division champions in 2025-2027 that one "So-So" Year makes the son Michael Bidwill NOT repeat the "sin" of the father.
Stats don't lie. Coryell and the Cardinals O/D/ST crews scared the hell out of the established big city winners in the mid 70s, using QB innovation and a stronger than expected Defensive schemes at the right time. Coryell liked to say when he was the Cardinals HC, "We do the unexpected." But the team's wheels fell off in 1977. Check the W/L board. The highly regarded Cardinals dropped a doozie of a game to the lowly Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 17-7, at the end of that year. Everyone had thrown in the towel. The HC waterhole was poisoned by then. No one had any interest in playing hard. Then in January, when Coryell asked for a pay raise and some say-so in personnel issues, Old Man Bill Bidwill and the Director of Operations Joe Sullivan along pansy Asst. Wilson secretly coordinated to move Coryell out of the way despite the HC's winning ways with an average roster in prior years. Bidwill's massive owner ego along with a tighfisted Director of Operations checkbook left Coryell no choice. He left STL with his head held high. HC Coryell and Dan Fouts blew the doors off NFL record books. The poorboy Cardinals floundered for the next 30 years, all because of Bill Bidwill's well-known oversight and penny-pinchings ways. Later, in the mid 80s, Bidwill's time in STL expired. He wanted the city to pay him to play downtown in a new stadium. The city government was struggling to pay police, fire, and sanitation services. Football was not that important. Bidwill said Phoenix needed a team. He left the second team's city for the third city. |
|
|
|
Post by BigRedFan on Jun 22, 2024 0:08:39 GMT -7
Great summary on the Cardinals and Jim Hart whom I only remember being a very good QB ... 30 INT's in 1973 - WOW !! When you look at the Coryell years there are potential definite parallels to the current Cardinal team - - First year of Coryell regime only had 4 wins before big jump to 10 wins in Yr. #2
- In that 2nd yr., WR Mel Gray became a standout receiver with speed and he was paired with the previous year's top receiver eventual HOF TE Jackie Smith (could the MHJ - McBride WR/TE combo provide similar results).
- In the 2nd Yr (1974) of the Coryell era, RB Terry Metcalf became a dynamic runner/receiver out of backfield and he was paired with hard nosed Jim Otis in adding the "thunder and lightning" approach to a running back room (could the Connor/Benson/Carter combination also make the 2024 Cardinal offense hard to stop ?)
- Good offensive play-calling with weapons created an environment for the QB to succeed and create a high-powered offense.
Word of Caution to MB from looking at this history -- Coryell averaged over 10 wins (in a 14 game schedule) 3 yrs in a row (1974-1976) but when the team went to 7-7 in 1977, "old man" Bidwill fired Coryell. RESULT: It took until 2009 on a 16 game schedule before the AZ Cardinals had double digit wins again - over 31 seasons of futility because a HOF coach was fired for going .500 after having a winning percentage of 74% the previous three seasons !!!!
I can only hope if this team makes a big jump and has several seasons in a row of being a playoff team and possibly being NFC West division champions in 2025-2027 that one "So-So" Year makes the son Michael Bidwill NOT repeat the "sin" of the father.
Stats don't lie. Coryell and the Cardinals O/D/ST crews scared the hell out of the established big city winners in the mid 70s, using QB innovation and a stronger than expected Defensive schemes at the right time. Coryell liked to say when he was the Cardinals HC, "We do the unexpected." But the team's wheels fell off in 1977. Check the W/L board. The highly regarded Cardinals dropped a doozie of a game to the lowly Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 17-7, at the end of that year. Everyone had thrown in the towel. The HC waterhole was poisoned by then. No one had any interest in playing hard. Then in January, when Coryell asked for a pay raise and some say-so in personnel issues, Old Man Bill Bidwill and the Director of Operations Joe Sullivan along with Asst. Wilson secretly coordinated to move Coryell out of the way despite the HC's winning ways with an average roster in prior years. Bidwill's massive owner ego along with a tighfisted Director of Operations checkbook left Coryell no choice. He left STL with his head held high. HC Coryell and Dan Fouts blew the doors off NFL record books. The poorboy Cardinals floundered for the next 30 years, all because of Bill Bidwill's well-known oversight and penny-pinchings ways. Later, in the mid 80s, Bidwill's time in STL expired. He wanted the city to pay him to play downtown in a new stadium. The city government was struggling to pay police, fire, and sanitation services. Football was not that important. Bidwill said Phoenix needed a team. He left the second team's city for the third city. EZ's statement is the epitome of Cardinal Football under the ownership of A Bidwill. It has always been a Mom & Pop, family run franchise. Bean counter guys hired by 'dollar' Bill Bidwill like Joe Sullivan, Larry Wilson, Bob Ferguson, Rod Graves and then Michael's bestest buddy, Steve Keim. Coryell was a gift to the St. Louis Cardinals as their head coach. Jim Hart thrived as a #1 QB and put up huge passing numbers. Coryell's offense under Hart propelled the Cardinals to their first division title in the new Super Bowl era. The Cardinals were nationally relevant. Brent, Irv, Phyllis and Jimmy (NFL on CBS) hosted weekly interviews and human interest stories on the resurgence of this franchise's success as the Cardinals closed in on winning the NFC East. Need Michael to step up and reward success to guys who bring him success. DO NOT 'Coryell' the new regime. Get a load of these Cardinal GM tenures for such a failed organization historically. www.retroseasons.com/teams/arizona-cardinals/history/general-managers/ |
|
|
|
Post by End Zone on Jun 22, 2024 14:22:56 GMT -7
Stats don't lie. Coryell and the Cardinals O/D/ST crews scared the hell out of the established big city winners in the mid 70s, using QB innovation and a stronger than expected Defensive schemes at the right time. Coryell liked to say when he was the Cardinals HC, "We do the unexpected." But the team's wheels fell off in 1977. Check the W/L board. The highly regarded Cardinals dropped a doozie of a game to the lowly Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 17-7, at the end of that year. Everyone had thrown in the towel. The HC waterhole was poisoned by then. No one had any interest in playing hard. Then in January, when Coryell asked for a pay raise and some say-so in personnel issues, Old Man Bill Bidwill and the Director of Operations Joe Sullivan along with Asst. Wilson secretly coordinated to move Coryell out of the way despite the HC's winning ways with an average roster in prior years. Bidwill's massive owner ego along with a tighfisted Director of Operations checkbook left Coryell no choice. He left STL with his head held high. HC Coryell and Dan Fouts blew the doors off NFL record books. The poorboy Cardinals floundered for the next 30 years, all because of Bill Bidwill's well-known oversight and penny-pinchings ways. Later, in the mid 80s, Bidwill's time in STL expired. He wanted the city to pay him to play downtown in a new stadium. The city government was struggling to pay police, fire, and sanitation services. Football was not that important. Bidwill said Phoenix needed a team. He left the second team's city for the third city. EZ's statement is the epitome of Cardinal Football under the ownership of A Bidwill. It has always been a Mom & Pop, family run franchise. Bean counter guys hired by 'dollar' Bill Bidwill like Joe Sullivan, Larry Wilson, Bob Ferguson, Rod Graves and then Michael's bestest buddy, Steve Keim. Coryell was a gift to the St. Louis Cardinals as their head coach. Jim Hart thrived as a #1 QB and put up huge passing numbers. Coryell's offense under Hart propelled the Cardinals to their first division title in the new Super Bowl era. The Cardinals were nationally relevant. Brent, Irv, Phyllis and Jimmy (NFL on CBS) hosted weekly interviews and human interest stories on the resurgence of this franchise's success as the Cardinals closed in on winning the NFC East. Need Michael to step up and reward success to guys who bring him success. DO NOT 'Coryell' the new regime. Get a load of these Cardinal GM tenures for such a failed organization historically. www.retroseasons.com/teams/arizona-cardinals/history/general-managers/That's what I'd call a 'rogue's gallery' of GMs. Some Cardinals men were Director of Operations and Assistants prior to the title of General Manager being born among the NFL's teams. The Cardinals DO's will forever own their horrid management decisions under former Bill 'Dollar Bill' Bidwill. |
|
|
|
Post by MT Diesel on Jun 30, 2024 18:14:15 GMT -7
One thing that some fans may be overlooking with K1 is even with a poor offensive scheme under Kliff, K1 is not good, but rather great at the throws outside the hashes mid to deep routes. When he had Nuk and Green he had his best success...not an accident. JG and Petzing as quality control type coaches will understand this and Wilson, MHJ and Moore will give K1 the most outside WR support he has ever had. He will not have as many attempts in 2024 watch for a significant increase in his yards per pass attempt. Also, Tip as a huge TE who is a blocking specialist will give the weakest offensive tackle as per Pass Pro...Jonah Williams at RT will have Tip at one side and Hernandez on the other. Evan Brown at LG, Hjalte at C, and Hernandez at RG the center of the line will be a strength and all three are big and strong, they will not allow the middle of the pocket to collapse. Jonah is too slow for fast edge players and Tip fixes that issue.
I project the 2024 Cards to be a top 5 offense along with K1 being in MVP consideration...too many stars are aligning. Add Conner, McBride, Carter, and Benson. K1 has never been surrounded with this many weapons or depth. The cream will rise IMO.
|
|
|
|
Post by thomas cat on Jun 30, 2024 19:49:05 GMT -7
Kyler Murray Enters his 6th season. Now days in the NFL quarterbacks are expected to produce
much faster than in the late 1960's thru the 1980's. This was the case with QB Jim Hart.
This isn't a comparison of the two QBS. Both are different in so many ways.
Since I followed both QBs and watched them play, Here is what I saw.
They both needed the right coaches and right players. With Hart
he had the great WRS and O line, Kyler has the WRS coming along now
and the line is so much better. Both had great running backs Hart had more depth.
This will change with my FSU guy Trey Benson coming in.
Jim Hart's start was horrible and as a teenager I wanted him replaced so bad
I was pulling my hair out. Terry Nofsinger, Tim Van Galder, Pete Beathard, Gary Cuzzo, Dennis Shaw, Steve Pisarkiewicz
They all tried to replace him. He was never going to leave that pocket either by being replaced or running the football.
He had no mobility. Unless you moved him with a hand truck. But that release was a rocket and strong.
1st season: #17 Hart's first and only start was IN 1966 4-11
2nd season: 19 TDS & 30 picks yikes
Don Coryell comes along and with him builds a staff
probably one of the best in NFL History.
Jim Hart & Coryell came together in 1973 ended in 1977
Offensive Line coach build him a line that cut the sacks from 22 down to 8
Air Coryell made him a Pro Bowl QB 4 times
Joe Gibbs former Super Bowl Coach was his Offensive Coordinator.
They took advantage of his quick release and strong arm and he excelled.
Link 1966-1977 Look at the years 1973-77
www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/crd/
Kyler Murray starts his 6th year in the NFL, Like Hart he has shined
Mobility, extending plays, making great throws.
Word out of camp is that he is back.
We have no more follies at coaching.
Coach Gannon is earning the respect not trying to be the
coolest coach in town.
Drew Petzig and the rest of the offensive coaches seems a far cry
better than the past regime. Play calling miscues were way down
Kyler's stats:
www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MurrKy00.htm
Highlights Jim Hart 1967
Highlights Kyler rookie season 2019
NOW!, IF Kyler can play for 17 years and hold off all challengers like
Jim Hart then like The late great Jack Buck used to say " That's a winner."
I'm a little late here, but I loved the Jim Hart Coryell years....it was magic. So many really good offensive players....and a handful of great defensive players such as HOF Roger Wehrli. For those who fallowed them back then. Just last weekend and it was on a St louis radio station. They had some kind of Dan Dierdorf appreciation day. I don't know if it was his birthday or what. Sadly, I missed most of it but what I did hear was golden. Besides having Dan himself, Jim Hart was on as well. It was funny, they asked him to tell some stories. Jim said, well maybe I better not.... it might not be appropriate for the radio. I'm sure it would not be anything that bad, but it was a different time back then. Anyway, if you were a fan back then, it brought back a lot of fond memories. |
|
|
|
Post by MT Diesel on Jul 1, 2024 4:39:45 GMT -7
Kyler Murray Enters his 6th season. Now days in the NFL quarterbacks are expected to produce
much faster than in the late 1960's thru the 1980's. This was the case with QB Jim Hart.
This isn't a comparison of the two QBS. Both are different in so many ways.
Since I followed both QBs and watched them play, Here is what I saw.
They both needed the right coaches and right players. With Hart
he had the great WRS and O line, Kyler has the WRS coming along now
and the line is so much better. Both had great running backs Hart had more depth.
This will change with my FSU guy Trey Benson coming in.
Jim Hart's start was horrible and as a teenager I wanted him replaced so bad
I was pulling my hair out. Terry Nofsinger, Tim Van Galder, Pete Beathard, Gary Cuzzo, Dennis Shaw, Steve Pisarkiewicz
They all tried to replace him. He was never going to leave that pocket either by being replaced or running the football.
He had no mobility. Unless you moved him with a hand truck. But that release was a rocket and strong.
1st season: #17 Hart's first and only start was IN 1966 4-11
2nd season: 19 TDS & 30 picks yikes
Don Coryell comes along and with him builds a staff
probably one of the best in NFL History.
Jim Hart & Coryell came together in 1973 ended in 1977
Offensive Line coach build him a line that cut the sacks from 22 down to 8
Air Coryell made him a Pro Bowl QB 4 times
Joe Gibbs former Super Bowl Coach was his Offensive Coordinator.
They took advantage of his quick release and strong arm and he excelled.
Link 1966-1977 Look at the years 1973-77
www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/crd/
Kyler Murray starts his 6th year in the NFL, Like Hart he has shined
Mobility, extending plays, making great throws.
Word out of camp is that he is back.
We have no more follies at coaching.
Coach Gannon is earning the respect not trying to be the
coolest coach in town.
Drew Petzig and the rest of the offensive coaches seems a far cry
better than the past regime. Play calling miscues were way down
Kyler's stats:
www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MurrKy00.htm
Highlights Jim Hart 1967
Highlights Kyler rookie season 2019
NOW!, IF Kyler can play for 17 years and hold off all challengers like
Jim Hart then like The late great Jack Buck used to say " That's a winner."
I'm a little late here, but I loved the Jim Hart Coryell years....it was magic. So many really good offensive players....and a handful of great defensive players such as HOF Roger Wehrli. For those who fallowed them back then. Just last weekend and it was on a St louis radio station. They had some kind of Dan Dierdorf appreciation day. I don't know if it was his birthday or what. Sadly, I missed most of it but what I did hear was golden. Besides having Dan himself, Jim Hart was on as well. It was funny, they asked him to tell some stories. Jim said, well maybe I better not.... it might not be appropriate for the radio. I'm sure it would not be anything that bad, but it was a different time back then. Anyway, if you were a fan back then, it brought back a lot of fond memories. First off, great post. Personally I have very limited knowledge of the St. Louis years...there was no coverage for me in the NW and those outside local or regional areas at the time. With Mention of Dan another asset of those Cards above Don as the HC and a genius FB mind was the quality of the OL. I appreciate as you say when things were different...type of stories. Some are way beyond what this generation would consider acceptable also some were personalities that were free spirits. |
|
