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Post by CardSunsCard on Mar 18, 2024 12:40:25 GMT -7
He is the tweener like Case young...too big for OLB and too small to hold up as a 4-3 end. Great athletes and not correct or optimal for NFL standards...put Bosa boys in that mix. Great when they are available but too small for the trenches and can not cover as an OLB needs to do at times. These guys are killers in college and durable against the less powerful OL players at that level. That explains the growing 32-team love for Turner. He's got a glowing resume. Q: Do you rank Turner higher than Jalen Carter (taken #9 by PHI last year)? Turner doesn't grade out anywhere close to Carter. Last year, the ONLY debate on Carter was off the field incident stuff. In terms of talent, Carter was one of the few players who actually plays the run and pass equally well. Like Aaron Donald. Turner has no run support value. He's actually a liability for run support. Turner can still create tons of value on the pass rush side, but he really is more of a luxury pick for teams that already have a strong DL core in place.
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Post by End Zone on Mar 18, 2024 12:46:58 GMT -7
Thanks for the review. I specified Carter due to the baggage ahead of his Draft. PHI got a diamond.
So, Monti should pass on Turner, at least in the early 1st Round? BTW, Chandler Jones was picked in the 1st Rd, 21st.
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Post by End Zone on Mar 18, 2024 12:52:23 GMT -7
That explains the growing 32-team love for Turner. He's got a glowing resume. Q: Do you rank Turner higher than Jalen Carter (taken #9 by PHI last year)? Beauty is in the eyes of the beer-holder. As a Card fan in 2024...no and I have explained why. IDL and 300 LB men who can hold a gap, require help blocking them, stop the run and have ability and dynamic speed in a phone booth to collapse a pocket and flush the QB or get to him. I think the two FA IDL signings were a good start and verbalized the need to be the baddest MO...FO's and encourage their teammates to take the same stance. Diversity second to big strong men who refuse and have the ability to be pushed around. This is why, even with the weight issues Sweat could be a solid addition to the AZ defense. A couple years of 300 snaps from Sweat would make a late 2nd worth picking him up. IMHO I gotta go back and watch some Sweat video. He is not on my short list.
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Post by Chirpn’time on Mar 18, 2024 14:12:58 GMT -7
Beauty is in the eyes of the beer-holder. As a Card fan in 2024...no and I have explained why. IDL and 300 LB men who can hold a gap, require help blocking them, stop the run and have ability and dynamic speed in a phone booth to collapse a pocket and flush the QB or get to him. I think the two FA IDL signings were a good start and verbalized the need to be the baddest MO...FO's and encourage their teammates to take the same stance. Diversity second to big strong men who refuse and have the ability to be pushed around. This is why, even with the weight issues Sweat could be a solid addition to the AZ defense. A couple years of 300 snaps from Sweat would make a late 2nd worth picking him up. IMHO I gotta go back and watch some Sweat video. He is not on my short list. NFL coaches put more emphasis on body weight control. Controlling body weight is his largest issue. The he takes snaps off are to justify not taking him early. He wasn't able to be overpowered in college and SR Bowl. He refused to be weighed at the SR Bowl and many involved at the SR Bowl took issue with it and took no issue with his reps. Murphy, no doubt will get a higher draft pick due to Sweat. He can be had in late 2nd or the 3rd round...cheap for his ability to control and disrupt where he is.
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Post by CardSunsCard on Apr 3, 2024 8:23:31 GMT -7
That explains the growing 32-team love for Turner. He's got a glowing resume. Q: Do you rank Turner higher than Jalen Carter (taken #9 by PHI last year)? Turner doesn't grade out anywhere close to Carter. Last year, the ONLY debate on Carter was off the field incident stuff. In terms of talent, Carter was one of the few players who actually plays the run and pass equally well. Like Aaron Donald. Turner has no run support value. He's actually a liability for run support. Turner can still create tons of value on the pass rush side, but he really is more of a luxury pick for teams that already have a strong DL core in place. FLCF's recent post got me thinking about Carter vs MHJ and all the 'generational' comments people love to throw out. If you don't count off field stuff. Jalen Carter was a perfect example of a guy seen as generational. He scored 99 out of 100 in terms of prospect rankings. As I've stated before, anything above 98 is generational. Guys below 98 aren't. MHJ scores 96-97 which is great, but not generational. Turner grades out at 96-97 as well. To score above 98 you've got to do almost everything well. In baseball terms, it means you're a 5 tool player. Turner has the speed to register 20 sacks a year, maybe, but he's not known as being strong in run support. He's like a Reddick in that regard. Which means he can be productive, but he's not bringing the value of Chris Jones or Donald. I don't think there's a guaranteed generational player in this draft other than Bowers. It's why I was posting about Bowers over 2 years ago. The only thing that might stop Bowers would be injuries since he's coming off surgery. While I think we will likely take a WR with our first pick, I think Bowers and Turner would actually create more 'value' for us, because they have higher grades and can likely be had between picks 7-12. The real Wildcard in all of this conjecture is how good Jerry Rice's son is. If the kid is as good as some say, and he can be had in late 2nd or 3rd round, do we really have to sign Odunze or MHJ? I'm not so sure we do. Wilson + Rice's kid McBride + Bowers That's a pretty talented combo if our base set is 2 WR + 2 TEs. The only reason I'm probably leaning toward a WR early is because Wilson's got a terrible injury history, so even if we believe the kid is the real deal, he will probably never play a full season. The thing about Rice's kid and Wilson is both are tremendous blockers in the run game as well. So unlike other WR's who provide next to no value in the run game, Rice/Wilson do. If we think along those lines, it pushes me more toward Odunze as well because I'm thinking he's also a better run blocker than MHJ/Nabors. Bottom line. How much we need Odunze/MHJ, etc... really depends on how good we think Rice's kid is. Anyways... I just find it funny that so many who think MHJ is guaranteed to be generational didn't see Carter as the same. MHJ could end up being generational, but he doesn't project to be generational. And the same folks who discounted Carter are doing the same to Bowers, who I think may surprise folks and go higher than thought. What many have forgotten is before Bowers got hurt, he was projected to be the #3 pick. Not MHJ. So unless you dispute that Fact, how is MHJ the more generational of the two guys?
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Post by CardsFanQC on Apr 3, 2024 9:09:13 GMT -7
Turner doesn't grade out anywhere close to Carter. Last year, the ONLY debate on Carter was off the field incident stuff. In terms of talent, Carter was one of the few players who actually plays the run and pass equally well. Like Aaron Donald. Turner has no run support value. He's actually a liability for run support. Turner can still create tons of value on the pass rush side, but he really is more of a luxury pick for teams that already have a strong DL core in place. FLCF's recent post got me thinking about Carter vs MHJ and all the 'generational' comments people love to throw out. If you don't count off field stuff. Jalen Carter was a perfect example of a guy seen as generational. He scored 99 out of 100 in terms of prospect rankings. As I've stated before, anything above 98 is generational. Guys below 98 aren't. MHJ scores 96-97 which is great, but not generational. Turner grades out at 96-97 as well. To score above 98 you've got to do almost everything well. In baseball terms, it means you're a 5 tool player. Turner has the speed to register 20 sacks a year, maybe, but he's not known as being strong in run support. He's like a Reddick in that regard. Which means he can be productive, but he's not bringing the value of Chris Jones or Donald. I don't think there's a guaranteed generational player in this draft other than Bowers. It's why I was posting about Bowers over 2 years ago. The only thing that might stop Bowers would be injuries since he's coming off surgery. While I think we will likely take a WR with our first pick, I think Bowers and Turner would actually create more 'value' for us, because they have higher grades and can likely be had between picks 7-12. The real Wildcard in all of this conjecture is how good Jerry Rice's son is. If the kid is as good as some say, and he can be had in late 2nd or 3rd round, do we really have to sign Odunze or MHJ? I'm not so sure we do. Wilson + Rice's kid McBride + Bowers That's a pretty talented combo if our base set is 2 WR + 2 TEs. The only reason I'm probably leaning toward a WR early is because Wilson's got a terrible injury history, so even if we believe the kid is the real deal, he will probably never play a full season. The thing about Rice's kid and Wilson is both are tremendous blockers in the run game as well. So unlike other WR's who provide next to no value in the run game, Rice/Wilson do. If we think along those lines, it pushes me more toward Odunze as well because I'm thinking he's also a better run blocker than MHJ/Nabors. Bottom line. How much we need Odunze/MHJ, etc... really depends on how good we think Rice's kid is. Anyways... I just find it funny that so many who think MHJ is guaranteed to be generational didn't see Carter as the same. MHJ could end up being generational, but he doesn't project to be generational. And the same folks who discounted Carter are doing the same to Bowers, who I think may surprise folks and go higher than thought. What many have forgotten is before Bowers got hurt, he was projected to be the #3 pick. Not MHJ. So unless you dispute that Fact, how is MHJ the more generational of the two guys? HMMM ... Jalen Carter and revisionist history. So before we put him in the HOF, please remember he plead no contest and was sued for leaving the scene of a FATAL accident (2 people died) caused from car racing at 2AM. Excerpt from WF 2023 Scouting Report on the talented Jalen Carter: Weaknesses: (NOTE: These weaknesses was BEFORE the lawsuit referred to above). Did not produce up to his skill set Poor character
Off-the-field concerns
Doesn’t work hard Gets winded in games
Conditioning needs to improve - in fact at his Pro Day, Jalen Carter was so winded he sat out some drills! Has a reputation of not loving football
Hand usage could get better Large mass guards can give him some problems Summary: Georgia won its first National Championship since 1980 in 2021, led by a legendary defense that possessed some elite prospects for the NFL on the defensive front. Mammoth nose tackle Jordan Davis got a lot of media attention, and fellow tackle Devonte Wyatt received acclaim as well, but some broadcasters hinted that next year’s tackle Jalen Carter was even better those two, as Carter flashed dynamic ability while rotating with those star veterans. Carter recorded 37 tackles and three sacks in a backup role in 2021 and showed a serious skill set to make him a player to watch in 2022. Carter then totaled 32 tackles, three sacks, two forced fumbles and two passes batted in 2022. The junior missed some time due to a sprained MCL from a dirty hit versus Missouri. In the playoff win over Ohio State, Carter had a fast start, but he faded because he got winded, exposing his lack of conditioning. Carter admitted to the problem after the game and tried to improve his conditioning before the National Championship win over TCU.All evidence points to MHJ having the best work ethic on the entire Ohio State Buckeye team.
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Post by CardSunsCard on Apr 3, 2024 13:32:05 GMT -7
FLCF's recent post got me thinking about Carter vs MHJ and all the 'generational' comments people love to throw out. If you don't count off field stuff. Jalen Carter was a perfect example of a guy seen as generational. He scored 99 out of 100 in terms of prospect rankings. As I've stated before, anything above 98 is generational. Guys below 98 aren't. MHJ scores 96-97 which is great, but not generational. Turner grades out at 96-97 as well. To score above 98 you've got to do almost everything well. In baseball terms, it means you're a 5 tool player. Turner has the speed to register 20 sacks a year, maybe, but he's not known as being strong in run support. He's like a Reddick in that regard. Which means he can be productive, but he's not bringing the value of Chris Jones or Donald. I don't think there's a guaranteed generational player in this draft other than Bowers. It's why I was posting about Bowers over 2 years ago. The only thing that might stop Bowers would be injuries since he's coming off surgery. While I think we will likely take a WR with our first pick, I think Bowers and Turner would actually create more 'value' for us, because they have higher grades and can likely be had between picks 7-12. The real Wildcard in all of this conjecture is how good Jerry Rice's son is. If the kid is as good as some say, and he can be had in late 2nd or 3rd round, do we really have to sign Odunze or MHJ? I'm not so sure we do. Wilson + Rice's kid McBride + Bowers That's a pretty talented combo if our base set is 2 WR + 2 TEs. The only reason I'm probably leaning toward a WR early is because Wilson's got a terrible injury history, so even if we believe the kid is the real deal, he will probably never play a full season. The thing about Rice's kid and Wilson is both are tremendous blockers in the run game as well. So unlike other WR's who provide next to no value in the run game, Rice/Wilson do. If we think along those lines, it pushes me more toward Odunze as well because I'm thinking he's also a better run blocker than MHJ/Nabors. Bottom line. How much we need Odunze/MHJ, etc... really depends on how good we think Rice's kid is. Anyways... I just find it funny that so many who think MHJ is guaranteed to be generational didn't see Carter as the same. MHJ could end up being generational, but he doesn't project to be generational. And the same folks who discounted Carter are doing the same to Bowers, who I think may surprise folks and go higher than thought. What many have forgotten is before Bowers got hurt, he was projected to be the #3 pick. Not MHJ. So unless you dispute that Fact, how is MHJ the more generational of the two guys? HMMM ... Jalen Carter and revisionist history. Weaknesses: (NOTE: These weaknesses was BEFORE the lawsuit referred to above). Did not produce up to his skill set Poor character
Off-the-field concerns
Doesn’t work hard Gets winded in games
Conditioning needs to improve - in fact at his Pro Day, Jalen Carter was so winded he sat out some drills! Has a reputation of not loving football
Hand usage could get better Large mass guards can give him some problems ..... How many interior big men don't get winded? Dan Williams sure did. Remember him. There is no revisionist history. Several of us were big Carter fans and knew that the off field stuff would take him off draft boards. I understood that and was okay with it. Doubting his talent, or not being able to see it was the issue. When people compile draft grades they always have to point out something negative. They did same to Aaron Donald. It still doesn't change the fact he had a 99 grade. A friggin 99! Very few guys ever score that high. Most years, they won't grade anyone 98. As a reference point, Bosa graded out at 98. Quinnen Williams was 98. My issue then, as it is still, given your rebuttal, is people literally ignore the fact that he had a 99 grade and try to 'make up' reasons why he wasn't going to be good. Then they want to ignore the fact MHJ isn't even graded as generational then call him generational. It's laughable. Almost as laughable as saying he gets winded as a negative then using the next negative as conditioning needs to improve. It's the same dang thing. Just because MHJ doesn't grade as generational doesn't mean he won't be. Work ethic could make him one. What I'm pointing out is plenty of board members ignore professional analysis. And there's just no way to ignore a 99 grade. Saying you wouldn't take him because he's got legal issues is one thing. I can support that. Especially after we got Nkemdich-ed. Fact: No interior DL graded as high as Carter since Donald.
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