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Post by CardSunsCard on Aug 29, 2023 10:33:25 GMT -7
Most of the board has heard of Caleb Williams but many don't watch college ball and are unfamiliar with Drake Maye. The latter is actually considered on par, if not better than Caleb, depending on which draft evaluator you agree with. For the record, I'm hoping Murray impresses this year and we don't need to take a QB next year. If we do, I don't think Caleb is really a fit for the offense we want to run, anymore than Kyler is. Drake Maye on the other hand, at 6 ft 4, 225 lbs, is built more like Josh Allen. He's not as powerful a runner as Josh and doesn't have his arm strength, but he's far more accurate and equally creative while on the run.
If we aren't looking to take Drake, I think he's the main reason we should be looking to trade down if we acquire two top-3 picks. Trade down twice. Because there will be many wanting to trade up for both of the above. Some things I really like about Maye is his willingness to stay in the pocket and take big hits, not to mention moving safeties with pump fakes. He's a lot more refined QB than many of today's athletic QBs. A good example is at the 1:30 min mark.
Drake really is the guy I want if I'm going QB. Both he and Caleb are seen as generational QBs, unlike last year's kids. Note that Drake also faced more 'pressured' throws than any other QB. And he still performed.
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Post by devongent on Aug 29, 2023 11:25:08 GMT -7
Drake really is the guy I want if I'm going QB. Both he and Caleb are seen as generational QBs, unlike last year's kids. I am hoping we are not using a pick on a QB in the 2024 draft and I'm not really expecting one (unless the wheels really come off this year). Kyler Murray may not be ready to play much this season (I am certainly not banking on such), hence likely we will defer recruitment and role with what we have into 2024. I will keep an eye out on the Quarterbacks as time roles on, but there will be real talent available at non-QB positions; I say fill our boots on some of these guys whilst other teams compete and overpay for their dream. As you say some good trade-down options may present. Sign me off from the Caleb Williams train ride, and lets instead use our substantial draft capital to bolster the wider roster. (To answer your thread title question directly I will need to defer judgement for a while).
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Post by Dry Heat on Aug 29, 2023 12:21:12 GMT -7
I’m going to try really hard to be patient and hope Kyler is back by Week 9 at the latest, so we can get a good evaluation of his health and fit for the system.
But I’ll also be following a lot of college players, and these are the two QB’s I’ll be keeping an eye on. And a lot changes over a season. The top 100 will change an awful lot. It always does, and even then it’s full of busts.
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Post by End Zone on Aug 29, 2023 14:38:41 GMT -7
Most of the board has heard of Caleb Williams but many don't watch college ball and are unfamiliar with Drake Maye. The latter is actually considered on par, if not better than Caleb, depending on which draft evaluator you agree with. For the record, I'm hoping Murray impresses this year and we don't need to take a QB next year. If we do, I don't think Caleb is really a fit for the offense we want to run, anymore than Kyler is. Drake Maye on the other hand, at 6 ft 4, 225 lbs, is built more like Josh Allen. He's not as powerful a runner as Josh and doesn't have his arm strength, but he's far more accurate and equally creative while on the run. If we aren't looking to take Drake, I think he's the main reason we should be looking to trade down if we acquire two top-3 picks. Trade down twice. Because there will be many wanting to trade up for both of the above. Some things I really like about Maye is his willingness to stay in the pocket and take big hits, not to mention moving safeties with pump fakes. He's a lot more refined QB than many of today's athletic QBs. A good example is at the 1:30 min mark. Drake really is the guy I want if I'm going QB. Both he and Caleb are seen as generational QBs, unlike last year's kids. Note that Drake also faced more 'pressured' throws than any other QB. And he still performed. Interesting that you mention Drake Maye now. At the NFL Network discussion this afternoon, the Cardinals QB situation was closely examined. People were holding their noses. Thank McCoy for the sudden attention. Anyway, the analysts mentioned Drake Maye as a possible 2024 selectee by the Cardinals. Some like what he brings to the type offense that the Gannon group appear to be building. Some were clear that Kyler Murray has to adapt to Petzing and Gannon, not the other way around. I'm going to dig into Maye. I like Josh Allen a lot. He was not hot his first year but man he really took off after some hard-knock experiences.
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Post by knobby on Aug 29, 2023 15:01:29 GMT -7
Most of the board has heard of Caleb Williams but many don't watch college ball and are unfamiliar with Drake Maye. The latter is actually considered on par, if not better than Caleb, depending on which draft evaluator you agree with. For the record, I'm hoping Murray impresses this year and we don't need to take a QB next year. If we do, I don't think Caleb is really a fit for the offense we want to run, anymore than Kyler is. Drake Maye on the other hand, at 6 ft 4, 225 lbs, is built more like Josh Allen. He's not as powerful a runner as Josh and doesn't have his arm strength, but he's far more accurate and equally creative while on the run.
If we aren't looking to take Drake, I think he's the main reason we should be looking to trade down if we acquire two top-3 picks. Trade down twice. Because there will be many wanting to trade up for both of the above. Some things I really like about Maye is his willingness to stay in the pocket and take big hits, not to mention moving safeties with pump fakes. He's a lot more refined QB than many of today's athletic QBs. A good example is at the 1:30 min mark.
Drake really is the guy I want if I'm going QB. Both he and Caleb are seen as generational QBs, unlike last year's kids. Note that Drake also faced more 'pressured' throws than any other QB. And he still performed.
I like what I see in the links you provided. This guy shows the skills needed for success, and is definitely one to watch and consider. IMO he demonstrates more rounded ability than KM did at Oklahoma... for an NFL team.
The really good QBs aren't available that often, and are difference makers as pros.
It will be interesting to see what our brain trust does in the next draft.
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Post by CardSunsCard on Aug 29, 2023 17:52:30 GMT -7
Most of the board has heard of Caleb Williams but many don't watch college ball and are unfamiliar with Drake Maye. The latter is actually considered on par, if not better than Caleb, depending on which draft evaluator you agree with. For the record, I'm hoping Murray impresses this year and we don't need to take a QB next year. If we do, I don't think Caleb is really a fit for the offense we want to run, anymore than Kyler is. Drake Maye on the other hand, at 6 ft 4, 225 lbs, is built more like Josh Allen. He's not as powerful a runner as Josh and doesn't have his arm strength, but he's far more accurate and equally creative while on the run. If we aren't looking to take Drake, I think he's the main reason we should be looking to trade down if we acquire two top-3 picks. Trade down twice. Because there will be many wanting to trade up for both of the above. Some things I really like about Maye is his willingness to stay in the pocket and take big hits, not to mention moving safeties with pump fakes. He's a lot more refined QB than many of today's athletic QBs. A good example is at the 1:30 min mark. Drake really is the guy I want if I'm going QB. Both he and Caleb are seen as generational QBs, unlike last year's kids. Note that Drake also faced more 'pressured' throws than any other QB. And he still performed. Interesting that you mention Drake Maye now. At the NFL Network discussion this afternoon, the Cardinals QB situation was closely examined. People were holding their noses. Thank McCoy for the sudden attention. Anyway, the analysts mentioned Drake Maye as a possible 2024 selectee by the Cardinals. Some like what he brings to the type offense that the Gannon group appear to be building. Some were clear that Kyler Murray has to adapt to Petzing and Gannon, not the other way around. I'm going to dig into Maye. I like Josh Allen a lot. He was not hot his first year but man he really took off after some hard-knock experiences. One thing about guys like Maye or Josh Allen, is they compete with much less talent than Murray or Caleb do, the latter two having always been surrounded with elite talent. That's always a comfort for me knowing the guys don't have the same chip on their shoulder, knowing they'll cry if you don't grab them their stud best friend WRs. When the former guys excel, I feel like they are far more likely to find success in the pros because they are used to doing most the work themselves. Mahomes was similar to Maye and Allen in that regard except Mahomes did get to work with Crabtree. But outside that, Maye, Mahomes and Allen didn't have the luxury of having all pro lines blocking for them in college. Beyond the pump fakes and movement skills there are other things in Maye's film that I like. Skip to the 6 min:42 mark and note the sight adjust audible he makes on the corner blitz. When it was a running down. When you see those moves that also keys you in that the kid may be more advanced at reading a defense. That being said, I have zero doubts as to Caleb reading defenses. Unlike Murray, Caleb showed he was making advanced reads early. So any compliment I've giving Maye is less about me not liking Caleb, and more me just thinking Maye's a far better fit for us. Honestly, I could see us taking Maye and see someone like the Seahawks or Denver trading up for Caleb. Note: Drake has a new offensive coordinator this year so I don't know if that's going to help him or not. Changing coordinators doesn't always help QBs
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Post by End Zone on Aug 30, 2023 4:01:09 GMT -7
Interesting that you mention Drake Maye now. At the NFL Network discussion this afternoon, the Cardinals QB situation was closely examined. People were holding their noses. Thank McCoy for the sudden attention. Anyway, the analysts mentioned Drake Maye as a possible 2024 selectee by the Cardinals. Some like what he brings to the type offense that the Gannon group appear to be building. Some were clear that Kyler Murray has to adapt to Petzing and Gannon, not the other way around. I'm going to dig into Maye. I like Josh Allen a lot. He was not hot his first year but man he really took off after some hard-knock experiences. One thing about guys like Maye or Josh Allen, is they compete with much less talent than Murray or Caleb do, the latter two having always been surrounded with elite talent. That's always a comfort for me knowing the guys don't have the same chip on their shoulder, knowing they'll cry if you don't grab them their stud best friend WRs. When the former guys excel, I feel like they are far more likely to find success in the pros because they are used to doing most the work themselves. Mahomes was similar to Maye and Allen in that regard except Mahomes did get to work with Crabtree. But outside that, Maye, Mahomes and Allen didn't have the luxury of having all pro lines blocking for them in college. Beyond the pump fakes and movement skills there are other things in Maye's film that I like. Skip to the 6 min:42 mark and note the sight adjust audible he makes on the corner blitz. When it was a running down. When you see those moves that also keys you in that the kid may be more advanced at reading a defense. That being said, I have zero doubts as to Caleb reading defenses. Unlike Murray, Caleb showed he was making advanced reads early. So any compliment I've giving Maye is less about me not liking Caleb, and more me just thinking Maye's a far better fit for us. Honestly, I could see us taking Maye and see someone like the Seahawks or Denver trading up for Caleb. Note: Drake has a new offensive coordinator this year so I don't know if that's going to help him or not. Changing coordinators doesn't always help QBs Cardinalytic, thanks for the 2 YT video posts on Drake Maye (UNC) and Caleb Williams (USC). I strongly recommend Forum members acquaint themselves with these two awesome D1 program QBs. They are a 1-2 draft combo for round 1 at the NFL 2024 draft. Frankly, I knew a lot more about Williams at USC than Maye at UNC prior to watching the side-by-side QB comparisons. Wow, those two guys are super special. I saw no QB behaviors that rank as warning flags. I will keep an eye on them at North Carolina and Southern California this season. I hope both get through all games unscathed and enter the draft 100% healthy.
2024 Draft: The Cardinals will have a shot at one or both of them using the Houston or own 1st round pick. What other team can underperform Arizona in 2023? Houston? So what. If the Cardinals do select Maye or Williams, the Cardinals still might have an opportunity swap the next draft spot, move down, and get a huge number of future picks. QB Physicality: Nod to Maye. He's ready to take what the defense throws at him either when camped out in the pocket or at designed QB runs. I like his tendency to twice/thrice fake out the defenses, similar to Aaron Rodgers style. Maye needs upper body weight reps in the gym. He must add muscle to his upper body. Today, he's a spitting image of Brady at Michigan, just a few millimeters shorter in height. Williams uses incredible twitch, leg cuts, and foot speed to out-maneuver defenses on runs. He can take all defense physical hits. Williams reminds me of young Russell Wilson at NC State/Wisconsin. QB Accuracy: Tie. Both QBs thread needles. Both QBs are super athletes and make great passes from awkward positions similar to Mahomes. I think Maye's wind up and release is faster than Williams. Both QBs styles can look similar to a baseball infielder throwing to 1st base, aka Murray MLB scoop and throw. But, the differences are slight. Any NFL HC/OC will be happy with either QB for the passing game.QB & Gannon System Fit: This is the hardest call for me. If Murray returns to his 2021 form sometime in 2023, there is no positive gain by drafting Williams. Murray does have to train up and fit into Gannon and Petzing system fast. But, if Gannon does not get what he wants out of Murray in 2023, then the best QB fit is Maye. Nod to Maye. QB Pro Ready: Pick'em. Both QBs are starters day 1. Ready to Carry The Team: Neither. Both QBs will need a full season or two to establish themselves in the locker room and experience the differences of the NFL game.
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Post by CardSunsCard on Aug 30, 2023 13:30:54 GMT -7
One thing about guys like Maye or Josh Allen, is they compete with much less talent than Murray or Caleb do, the latter two having always been surrounded with elite talent. That's always a comfort for me knowing the guys don't have the same chip on their shoulder, knowing they'll cry if you don't grab them their stud best friend WRs. When the former guys excel, I feel like they are far more likely to find success in the pros because they are used to doing most the work themselves. Mahomes was similar to Maye and Allen in that regard except Mahomes did get to work with Crabtree. But outside that, Maye, Mahomes and Allen didn't have the luxury of having all pro lines blocking for them in college. Beyond the pump fakes and movement skills there are other things in Maye's film that I like. Skip to the 6 min:42 mark and note the sight adjust audible he makes on the corner blitz. When it was a running down. When you see those moves that also keys you in that the kid may be more advanced at reading a defense. That being said, I have zero doubts as to Caleb reading defenses. Unlike Murray, Caleb showed he was making advanced reads early. So any compliment I've giving Maye is less about me not liking Caleb, and more me just thinking Maye's a far better fit for us. Honestly, I could see us taking Maye and see someone like the Seahawks or Denver trading up for Caleb. Note: Drake has a new offensive coordinator this year so I don't know if that's going to help him or not. Changing coordinators doesn't always help QBs Cardinalytic, thanks for the 2 YT video posts on Drake Maye (UNC) and Caleb Williams (USC). I strongly recommend Forum members acquaint themselves with these two awesome D1 program QBs. They are a 1-2 draft combo for round 1 at the NFL 2024 draft. Frankly, I knew a lot more about Williams at USC than Maye at UNC prior to watching the side-by-side QB comparisons. Wow, those two guys are super special. I saw no QB behaviors that rank as warning flags. I will keep an eye on them at North Carolina and Southern California this season. I hope both get through all games unscathed and enter the draft 100% healthy.
2024 Draft: The Cardinals will have a shot at one or both of them using the Houston or own 1st round pick. What other team can underperform Arizona in 2023? Houston? So what. If the Cardinals do select Maye or Williams, the Cardinals still might have an opportunity swap the next draft spot, move down, and get a huge number of future picks. QB Physicality: Nod to Maye. He's ready to take what the defense throws at him either when camped out in the pocket or at designed QB runs. I like his tendency to twice/thrice fake out the defenses, similar to Aaron Rodgers style. Maye needs upper body weight reps in the gym. He must add muscle to his upper body. Today, he's a spitting image of Brady at Michigan, just a few millimeters shorter in height. Williams uses incredible twitch, leg cuts, and foot speed to out-maneuver defenses on runs. He can take all defense physical hits. Williams reminds me of young Russell Wilson at NC State/Wisconsin. QB Accuracy: Tie. Both QBs thread needles. Both QBs are super athletes and make great passes from awkward positions similar to Mahomes. I think Maye's wind up and release is faster than Williams. Both QBs styles can look similar to a baseball infielder throwing to 1st base, aka Murray MLB scoop and throw. But, the differences are slight. Any NFL HC/OC will be happy with either QB for the passing game.QB & Gannon System Fit: This is the hardest call for me. If Murray returns to his 2021 form sometime in 2023, there is no positive gain by drafting Williams. Murray does have to train up and fit into Gannon and Petzing system fast. But, if Gannon does not get what he wants out of Murray in 2023, then the best QB fit is Maye. Nod to Maye. QB Pro Ready: Pick'em. Both QBs are starters day 1. Ready to Carry The Team: Neither. Both QBs will need a full season or two to establish themselves in the locker room and experience the differences of the NFL game.Something else folks don't know is Drake Maye was offered at Alabama and turned them down. So just cause he's at NC doesn't mean much. He just wanted to stay near home. Maye is also young so he will put on upper body weight. He was a Freshman last year so this will be his second full season.
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Post by Native Az on Aug 30, 2023 15:44:11 GMT -7
Hard pass on Maye. Dude has done nothing in college to warrant replacing a ROY and 2xProbowler in K1.
Again people are really underestimating how difficult it is to be a starting QB in the NFL let alone do what K1 has done in 4 years with the worst franchise in sports.
K1 is all of the above as well as a top 10 and maybe Top 8 QB in this league.
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Post by Dry Heat on Aug 30, 2023 16:21:35 GMT -7
Cardinalytic, thanks for the 2 YT video posts on Drake Maye (UNC) and Caleb Williams (USC). I strongly recommend Forum members acquaint themselves with these two awesome D1 program QBs. They are a 1-2 draft combo for round 1 at the NFL 2024 draft. Frankly, I knew a lot more about Williams at USC than Maye at UNC prior to watching the side-by-side QB comparisons. Wow, those two guys are super special. I saw no QB behaviors that rank as warning flags. I will keep an eye on them at North Carolina and Southern California this season. I hope both get through all games unscathed and enter the draft 100% healthy.
2024 Draft: The Cardinals will have a shot at one or both of them using the Houston or own 1st round pick. What other team can underperform Arizona in 2023? Houston? So what. If the Cardinals do select Maye or Williams, the Cardinals still might have an opportunity swap the next draft spot, move down, and get a huge number of future picks. QB Physicality: Nod to Maye. He's ready to take what the defense throws at him either when camped out in the pocket or at designed QB runs. I like his tendency to twice/thrice fake out the defenses, similar to Aaron Rodgers style. Maye needs upper body weight reps in the gym. He must add muscle to his upper body. Today, he's a spitting image of Brady at Michigan, just a few millimeters shorter in height. Williams uses incredible twitch, leg cuts, and foot speed to out-maneuver defenses on runs. He can take all defense physical hits. Williams reminds me of young Russell Wilson at NC State/Wisconsin. QB Accuracy: Tie. Both QBs thread needles. Both QBs are super athletes and make great passes from awkward positions similar to Mahomes. I think Maye's wind up and release is faster than Williams. Both QBs styles can look similar to a baseball infielder throwing to 1st base, aka Murray MLB scoop and throw. But, the differences are slight. Any NFL HC/OC will be happy with either QB for the passing game.QB & Gannon System Fit: This is the hardest call for me. If Murray returns to his 2021 form sometime in 2023, there is no positive gain by drafting Williams. Murray does have to train up and fit into Gannon and Petzing system fast. But, if Gannon does not get what he wants out of Murray in 2023, then the best QB fit is Maye. Nod to Maye. QB Pro Ready: Pick'em. Both QBs are starters day 1. Ready to Carry The Team: Neither. Both QBs will need a full season or two to establish themselves in the locker room and experience the differences of the NFL game.Something else folks don't know is Drake Maye was offered at Alabama and turned them down. So just cause he's at NC doesn't mean much. He just wanted to stay near home. Maye is also young so he will put on upper body weight. He was a Freshman last year so this will be his second full season. Lytic, I want your thoughts and those of others who understand contracts on the idea of drafting a QB like Maye if we end up in a position to without trading up, but keeping Kyler through 2024 and then making a decision about Kyler. I don’t know your opinion on starting rookie QB’s, but I’m a bit old school and like to see at least a year of coaching and learning in the NFL. My review of Kyler’s contract is: 2023: we are stuck in it due to injury clause, and because his dead cap is an obscene $97.5 million. We all know he’s here for the year, either on IR or playing some time after Week 4. 2024: We have been discussing drafting a QB and then trading KM1 for whatever a team is willing to give up for a QB who was injured and likely won’t have a ton of game time since an ACL/MCL rehab, plus much of his game depends on mobility, the last thing to come back after that surgery (personal experience speaking). His dead cap is still an obscene $$81.5 million. My point is there is not a lot of potential cap savings there, and not a ton of trade return as his contract is so huge and injury and ability questions will remain. My suggestion, if Maye was there for our first 1st rounder, is we take him but roll with Kyler for 2024, seeing what he can do after a full year recovered and with the better roster our 2024 draft and free agency should get us. Coach up Maye. By the end of 2024 and into the 2025 off-season, you have a pretty good idea what you have in both. 2025: Decision time. Stick with Kyler and trade away (or keep) Maye, or trade away Kyler for hopefully more than you get in 2024 (easier to assume contract and more film). Kyler’s dead cap is $33 million in 2025 instead of $81.5 million in 2024.
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Post by CardCore on Aug 30, 2023 16:36:37 GMT -7
There's a season to be played before the draft comes around again, lots can happen obviously. Do we even know that Maye will declare after this season?
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Post by Dry Heat on Aug 30, 2023 17:32:27 GMT -7
There's a season to be played before the draft comes around again, lots can happen obviously. Do we even know that Maye will declare after this season? With the season most of us are expecting there will be a LOT of speculation and dreaming about the future. Better get used to it!
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Post by CardSunsCard on Aug 30, 2023 17:32:56 GMT -7
There's a season to be played before the draft comes around again, lots can happen obviously. Do we even know that Maye will declare after this season? It depends on his season, which may not be as good as last year given he's got a new coordinator. If his season is as good, I think he goes #1 ahead of Caleb. He broke records last year as a Freshmen and actually faced the highest 'pressured throw' rate of most NCAA QBs. Honestly, it'll be next to impossible to repeat those stats again plus his new coordinator is committed to running the football a lot more.
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Post by CardSunsCard on Aug 30, 2023 17:35:14 GMT -7
Something else folks don't know is Drake Maye was offered at Alabama and turned them down. So just cause he's at NC doesn't mean much. He just wanted to stay near home. Maye is also young so he will put on upper body weight. He was a Freshman last year so this will be his second full season. Lytic, I want your thoughts and those of others who understand contracts on the idea of drafting a QB like Maye if we end up in a position to without trading up, but keeping Kyler through 2024 and then making a decision about Kyler. I don’t know your opinion on starting rookie QB’s, but I’m a bit old school and like to see at least a year of coaching and learning in the NFL. My review of Kyler’s contract is: 2023: we are stuck in it due to injury clause, and because his dead cap is an obscene $97.5 million. We all know he’s here for the year, either on IR or playing some time after Week 4. 2024: We have been discussing drafting a QB and then trading KM1 for whatever a team is willing to give up for a QB who was injured and likely won’t have a ton of game time since an ACL/MCL rehab, plus much of his game depends on mobility, the last thing to come back after that surgery (personal experience speaking). His dead cap is still an obscene $$81.5 million. My point is there is not a lot of potential cap savings there, and not a ton of trade return as his contract is so huge and injury and ability questions will remain. My suggestion, if Maye was there for our first 1st rounder, is we take him but roll with Kyler for 2024, seeing what he can do after a full year recovered and with the better roster our 2024 draft and free agency should get us. Coach up Maye. By the end of 2024 and into the 2025 off-season, you have a pretty good idea what you have in both. 2025: Decision time. Stick with Kyler and trade away (or keep) Maye, or trade away Kyler for hopefully more than you get in 2024 (easier to assume contract and more film). Kyler’s dead cap is $33 million in 2025 instead of $81.5 million in 2024. What you detail out was what I thought would happen for exactly the reasons you state. And it's what I prefer as well. I just don't think it will happen given everything I've been reading. And since I don't see Kyler as the mentoring time there's that. If I had Rogers as my QB I'd of course want my QBOTF to sit and learn for a year. (at least)
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Post by End Zone on Aug 31, 2023 3:43:25 GMT -7
Willams v. Maye tracker:
North Carolina Tar Heels, 0-0-0, Sep 2, 7:30 PM @ South Carolina Gamecocks 0-0-0 NC favored to win Weather forecast is clear sky, 77°F at kickoff @ Bank of America Stadium
Nevada Wolf Pack, 0-0-0, Sep 2, 6:30 PM @ USC Trojans, 1-0-0 USC favored to win Weather forecast is mostly cloudy, 79°F at kickoff @ Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum
On Aug 26th, USC beat San Jose State Spartans, 56-28. QB Williams passing 18/25/72%/278 yds/4 TDs/0 INTs/QBR 153.8. Rushing 8/-2 yards.
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